Academic salaries

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PhakeDoc

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From a snippet in an old thread...

Fencer said:
Instructor - 98K
Assistant Professor - 130K
Associate Professor - 160K
Professor - 195K
Chair - a lot more
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Is this the "total" salary or just the clinical component without the "faculty member" pay? From what I understood of the vague world of academic pay, there is the standard professorship/faculty pay (equivalent b/w MDs and PhD counterparts for a given rank and years of experience) and then the clinical practice income.

Also, if you are 50/50 clinical/bench (MuD PhuD w/ K award or R01), would salaries drastically differ? How about b/w Investigator or Clinical track?
 
Chairs do not make "much more" than 195k...As a matter of fact they are usually around 200k ..top 250... Professors do not make that much either....they are more like 180
 
i dont buy the 130 and less.
please some attedning get on here and verify anyone is working for that little...
unless its a low time committment and they are making money in a priveat clinic on top of it.
 
Minstral,

A family member of mine is in academic neurology (Assistant Professor). When she finished her fellowship a couple of years ago, she was offered $115,000 at a fairly prestigious program. She also happens to be in one of the "cash cow" sub-specialties. The position she ended up taking at a different academic center paid slightly more than the $130,000 you're balking at. I can also assure you that there is nothing slack about her hours or the expectations placed upon her.

The hospitals make a lot off of these attendings. She showed me what she bills in one year. Assuming the hospital will only collect even 40-50% of that, she is only getting paid a fraction of what she pulls in for the institution.

You don't go into academics for the money. At her institution, its pretty much only neurosurgery and a couple others who still go by the "eat what you kill" income system.
 
I'll echo what several of the previous posters have said regarding Academics and salaries. I would say that based on what I have seen from my fellow residents who have gone into academics vs. the private world, an Academician can expect to make roughly 1/2 of what a private Neurologist would, accounting for their level within the institution's hierarchy. For example, a starting Academician may make right around 100k, while most private groups start their folks out pushing 200k; Once partnered, salaries easily approach 300-400k, whereas in Academics professorship is surely below 200k almost universally. Some personal anecdotes to make the point:

--Former Chief Resident, 1 year of a 'unique and desirable' fellowship, starting salary of 100k in an academic setting

--Former Resident, 1 year of Neurophys, 2 years Neuromuscular Fellowship, starting salary of 98k in an academic setting.

--Former Resident, 1 year of a desirable fellowship, starting salary of 195k in a large private practice, partnership in 2 years with expected salary then between 350-375k.

All of these former residents are practicing in the same city, btw.

As previous posters have said, neither track is a cakewalk. You just have to decide what your major career stressor is going to be -- either making sure you're seeing enough patients in private practice to feed the Group, or playing the endless game of writing grants to justify your research to the Academic center who employs you. If you can answer which you'd rather do, then you're on your way...
 
And not everything that glitters is gold...
You certainly don't go into the academe for the money...not like you would go into medicine for that either. It really depends on what you get a kick out of...what gets you through the day less miserable...Between a yacht and a lab, I'll go for the lab any day...hahaha:laugh:
 
Just curious, do these academic salaries also apply to the Interventional Neurology fellowship trained neurologist. I have a hard time believeing that these specialists would make 100 k starting in an academic setting
 
CarefreeCFC said:
--Former Resident, 1 year of a desirable fellowship, starting salary of 195k in a large private practice, partnership in 2 years with expected salary then between 350-375k.
Click to expand...

What do you mean by desirable fellowship (EMG, EEG, sleep, pain, etc.)?

BrianUM said:
Just curious, do these academic salaries also apply to the Interventional Neurology fellowship trained neurologist. I have a hard time believeing that these specialists would make 100 k starting in an academic setting
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I don't think it includes interventional neuroradiologists (some who probably make close to 300 to 500 K).
 
Brainworks--
To reply to your question about a 'desirable' fellowship, I was intentionally being vague, just to be overprotective about the individuals' anonymity. That said, by 'desirable' I really meant unique; something that an employer or academic institution might really latch onto and make them want to hire an applicant. Statistically speaking, most of us will do Neurophysiology (EEG/EMG) which is great, but those applicants are a dime-a-dozen. Fellowships like Sleep, Stroke, Movement Disorders, NeuroOnc are things that are a bit of a rarity by comparison.

Just to comment on BrianUM's post about Interventional Neurology, it's such a young and developing field that it's hard to say much about. That said, I'm at an institution who is truly right on the front lines of it, although it's very much not my field. I'm at a large university program, and it's common knowledge that the highest paid doc in the entire system by some distance is the head of Neurosurgery, with a salary of 400k. I would think that would be pretty representative of most University programs. Given that, I'd be truly shocked if our squad of 4 Interventional Neurologists are making anything much over 250k or so. Their appointment is as professors in the Neurology Department in my University's grand scheme of things. I also don't know of any IN's who are able to work a private group as well as their Academic institution.
Now IN's exclusively in private practice is another matter altogether... I think most large private Neurology groups would love to have an Interventional Neurologist, and there will be a relative shortage for years to come as trainees slowly trickle out of fellowship programs. When our 2 senior IN fellows leave this year I'm sure they'll be treated as rock stars by any group they interview with. That said, they all seem to work 23 hours a day and are literally on call all the time, but if it's your thing, it's your thing. Although you'd better have a hardcore surgeon's mentality, yet be able to provide a Neurologist-level (deep) rationale for the risky/deadly procedures you're proposing to put your patients through... I'll stick with pondering the minutia of the Neurologic exam anyday. 😀
 
CarefreeCFC said:
Brainworks--
To reply to your question about a 'desirable' fellowship, I was intentionally being vague, just to be overprotective about the individuals' anonymity. That said, by 'desirable' I really meant unique; something that an employer or academic institution might really latch onto and make them want to hire an applicant. Statistically speaking, most of us will do Neurophysiology (EEG/EMG) which is great, but those applicants are a dime-a-dozen. Fellowships like Sleep, Stroke, Movement Disorders, NeuroOnc are things that are a bit of a rarity by comparison.

Just to comment on BrianUM's post about Interventional Neurology, it's such a young and developing field that it's hard to say much about. That said, I'm at an institution who is truly right on the front lines of it, although it's very much not my field. I'm at a large university program, and it's common knowledge that the highest paid doc in the entire system by some distance is the head of Neurosurgery, with a salary of 400k. I would think that would be pretty representative of most University programs. Given that, I'd be truly shocked if our squad of 4 Interventional Neurologists are making anything much over 250k or so. Their appointment is as professors in the Neurology Department in my University's grand scheme of things. I also don't know of any IN's who are able to work a private group as well as their Academic institution.
Now IN's exclusively in private practice is another matter altogether... I think most large private Neurology groups would love to have an Interventional Neurologist, and there will be a relative shortage for years to come as trainees slowly trickle out of fellowship programs. When our 2 senior IN fellows leave this year I'm sure they'll be treated as rock stars by any group they interview with. That said, they all seem to work 23 hours a day and are literally on call all the time, but if it's your thing, it's your thing. Although you'd better have a hardcore surgeon's mentality, yet be able to provide a Neurologist-level (deep) rationale for the risky/deadly procedures you're proposing to put your patients through... I'll stick with pondering the minutia of the Neurologic exam anyday. 😀
Click to expand...

thanks for the info...wow, i didnt know that IN's work that many hrs...even though I have a lot of time to make a decision on a residency one thing that draws me more interested in neuro than neurosurg is the lifestyle issue in neurosurg...i was thinking that IN is more like the interventional cardio of neuro which would be pretty busy but not neurosurg busy...time will tell...
 
Something to keep in mind:

Everyone dichotomizes "academic" and "private practice" medicine. There is an area in between: namely, practice as part of a physician group that covers a private or other hospital with an academic teaching affiliation. That way you will have both a generally higher salary than a pure "academic" doc employed directly by a teaching hospital system, but still have the ability to keep your hand in teaching residents and med students. You'll generally also have fewer residents/students to teach, so not as much double checking and having them hanging around in the way. You can also still be involved in research via the academic affiliation. Think about it. Sort of a "best of both worlds" scenario, and it's more common than you may realize.
 
neurologist said:
Something to keep in mind:

Sort of a "best of both worlds" scenario, and it's more common than you may realize.
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Cool...I can fulfill my Hannah Montana fantasy! Hahaha 🙂 But I think this is the ideal situation really. How do you enter into the academe scene? In our institution, you can't apply for a faculty post, it's "by invitation only". Is it the same there in the US? Tnx
 
Quote: You can also still be involved in research via the academic affiliation. Think about it. Sort of a "best of both worlds" scenario, and it's more common than you may realize.

Most researchers who are not producing junk are either doing one or the other, not both.
 
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homeobox_genes said:
Quote:What a joke. You end up doing junk research in that situation. To do any kind of serious research, you've got to be a full-time academic. Of course, if "academia" for you just means teaching residents and med students, by all means, walk this way!
Click to expand...

One of the big problems with some schools, is the fact that professors that are "big" in research turn out to be worthless clinicians and teachers. For one thing, a lot of them see any time taken away from their labs/research as a waste of time and therefore they do not look forward to "teach" anything outside of their specific research projects.

I find your comment rather distorted and with somewhat of a derogatory tone. It is a typical example of the problems with tenure and with some programs where the residents are literally on their own. Nothing wrong with staying in "academia" for the purpose of teaching. After all,

Academia: noun, derived from ACADEME, which is related to a "place of instruction" "where special subjects or skills are taught".

Apparently you are not aware that some universities are aggressively considering having professors in some strict clinical tracks to deal with this problem.
 
I want to go into the academe to do research, yes. But I actually want to teach too. 🙂
 
Are these numbers base salaries from the med school itself? Because if so, they might not include stipends paid from grants (which are certainly not inconsiderable-- add at least another $50K to those numbers).
 
Re: whether academic salaries include stipends from grants: the overwhelming practice in academia is to use any salary support to reimburse the institution for the investigator's salary and not to add this $ to the investigator's take-home pay. The money can go to lab costs etc. but predominantly will not go to salary.

Re: tenure tracks and research vs teaching, check with the specific policies of the institution, but by and large tenure is based solely on research results (grants, publications etc.) and not on teaching or clinical activities. If a program has specifically decided not to take this approach, they will make it clear. If on the other hand the program is like 99% of current programs, whatever they tell you, promotion and tenure are matters of research success ONLY.
 
The University of California System has everyone's salary posted in a database.

http://www.sacbee.com/1098/story/738462.html

i.e. John Maziotta, Chair, UCLA Neurology, salary : base $230,996, gross (including bonus): $433,471

Not bad eh? But you might argue, Dr. Maziotta is a world famous neurologist blah blah...what about the little guys?

Ok, look at this guy i randomly clicked on
Perry Sheih, assistant prof., base pay $87k, take home $129k.

a googling reveals that the credentials for Dr. Sheih is the following
Fellowship
Neuromuscular Diseases/EMG, Brigham & Women's Hospital, 2004 - 2005
Residency
Neurology, Stanford University Medical Center, 2001 - 2004
Internship
Internal Medicine, Yale-New Haven Hospital, 2000 - 2001
Medical Degree
MD, PhD, Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine, 2000
He only got boarded in neurophys in 2007. I think this is a fairly typical picture. Your salary goes up gradually and hit 200k by mid career.


Sure, it's still low compared to derm private practice...
 
Well the salary is obviously no great shakes.. that said, what is the typical lifestyle like in academic neurology?

If passing up private practice for academia really does comes along with increased control over your schedule and some protected research time, I'm the type that might actually be ok with accepting a significantly lower level of pay. OTOH if you're still getting slammed by call and hours of clinical work the university is billing for, getting paid less than a dentist working 35 hrs/wk would get pretty damn exasperating.

I know this heavily depends on your individual success in attracting outside research $upport, but I'd appreciate any input on the general range of how docs going into academic neuro spend their time; I guess I really have no idea of what a typical day/week is for an academic neurologist.
 
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