Competitiveness of DR 2009 vs 2011

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You have to look at things over a long period of time.

Classes change a lot, last year 10 people went to rads from my school, this year there are 3, and 16 in ortho compared to 6, should we extrapolate that everyone will be orthopods in a few years?

officedepot said:
This is just from my quick comparison. Feel free to add/debate/discuss.


I think overall the competitiveness of rads is drifting down despite the rising scores. I attribute this mainly to the extremely high/rising match rate, the lower number of applicants, etc. Agreed that it is still very hard to get those "top" programs but that will always be true.

Overall it's not that difficult to match in rads so long as you apply broadly. It seems people with lower scores didn't apply as much going from 2009 to 2011 accounting for the rising scores this year (I guess at this point it could be argued then that those with higher scores account for a larger pool of applicants making it more competitive BUT I would counter and say so long as those on the lower half of the spectrum apply broadly their chances of matching are MUCH better now and are increasing).

it's interesting to note that the number of people going into family medicine (US schools) increased by about 200 peeps. Gen surg increased by almost 70 (match rate decreased from 85 to 80). Internal medicine increased by more than 200. Neuro increased by 60. etc

So clearly the popularity of radiology is going down probably for various reasons. The competitiveness of other fields is actually starting to go up it seems.


edit:
I will add that anecdotally this is true just looking at the make-up of my school. I swear maybe 2 other people besides myself out of more than 150 are interested in rads. More and more like gen surg, ophtho, ortho, peds, and IM. Even neuro has jumped from 1 in previous years to about 7 now.
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officedepot said:
This is just from my quick comparison. Feel free to add/debate/discuss.


I think overall the competitiveness of rads is drifting down despite the rising scores. I attribute this mainly to the extremely high/rising match rate, the lower number of applicants, etc. Agreed that it is still very hard to get those "top" programs but that will always be true.

Overall it's not that difficult to match in rads so long as you apply broadly. It seems people with lower scores didn't apply as much going from 2009 to 2011 accounting for the rising scores this year (I guess at this point it could be argued then that those with higher scores account for a larger pool of applicants making it more competitive BUT I would counter and say so long as those on the lower half of the spectrum apply broadly their chances of matching are MUCH better now and are increasing).

it's interesting to note that the number of people going into family medicine (US schools) increased by about 200 peeps. Gen surg increased by almost 70 (match rate decreased from 85 to 80). Internal medicine increased by more than 200. Neuro increased by 60. etc

So clearly the popularity of radiology is going down probably for various reasons. The competitiveness of other fields is actually starting to go up it seems.


edit:
I will add that anecdotally this is true just looking at the make-up of my school. I swear maybe 2 other people besides myself out of more than 150 are interested in rads. More and more like gen surg, ophtho, ortho, peds, and IM. Even neuro has jumped from 1 in previous years to about 7 now.
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I don't understand your numbers. You cite a number of specialties that have apparently increased in popularity from last year, but your list is hardly exhaustive. It doesn't follow that an increase in students pursuing specialties X, Y, and Z leads to decreased popularity in radiology. Have you seen additional data that you can reference?

I think you know how much your anecdotal evidence is worth.

You may be right in that radiology is ready for a contraction, applicant-wise. I just haven't seen any evidence of that from what you've posted or otherwise.
 
If compensation for radiology goes down I am sure it will not be as competitive as before. High salary is the only thing that can make radiology attractive when you compare it with most specialties. No matter how how bad you think patient interaction is but that is what doctors do. They interact with and treat patients and radiologist is only an invisible helper.
So if you really like radiology then DO IT. Money will not be there in near future and that is understandable. Those salaries were unreal for radiology anyway. But you will still live comfortably. Bottom line radiology is getting easier to match into. And that is good news!
 
Hysty said:
If compensation for radiology goes down I am sure it will not be as competitive as before. High salary is the only thing that can make radiology attractive when you compare it with most specialties. No matter how how bad you think patient interaction is but that is what doctors do. They interact with and treat patients and radiologist is only an invisible helper.
So if you really like radiology then DO IT. Money will not be there in near future and that is understandable. Those salaries were unreal for radiology anyway. But you will still live comfortably. Bottom line radiology is getting easier to match into. And that is good news!
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Who let the glorified intern (i.e. hospitalist) in ?

Please go and correct your K=3.4 and order you chest CT to rule out PE.
 
hmmm... well relax Mr.Nightflight(*****). I love radiology and hoping to find a spot some day. Or maybe a fellowship. I hope its rads. I don't know why medicare can't fund second residencies. That is the biggest hurdle. Anyway good luck to everybody.
 
Hysty said:
If compensation for radiology goes down I am sure it will not be as competitive as before. High salary is the only thing that can make radiology attractive when you compare it with most specialties. No matter how how bad you think patient interaction is but that is what doctors do. They interact with and treat patients and radiologist is only an invisible helper.
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I'm not sure if you really intended to make such a superlative statement, but I vehemently disagree with the bolded part above. Yes, if compensation goes down significantly, so will competitiveness. I'm not naive enough to think that radiology would still be as attractive if we made family medicine money. There is definitely a population of radiologists in it for the wrong reasons (i.e. money), but the overwhelming majority that I know love the work. Why? I think because radiology offers a work experience and work flow in medicine that no other specialties (except probably pathology) can, and I think those qualities will always attract an appreciable subset of medical students. Radiology - as a non-core rotation - also does a fairly poor job of selling itself to students, which I think at least partially explains why there are so many radiologists that are also ex-[insert specialty here]. A very simple initiative from the ACR or RSNA to increase student exposure to radiology could have a decent impact on applications.

nightflight said:
Please go and correct your K=3.4 and order you chest CT to rule out PE.
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nightflight's generally crappy attitude notwithstanding, I actually chuckled at this.
 
My program director told me he has received less indicators of interest the past couple years than before, and other attendings in the department all agree that there is much less interest now than in 2009 or before. I guess we'll see. If you look at the match statistics from 2011 applications were down 10% compared to 2010.
 
These days radiology competitiveness is on a par with Pediatrics and IM. New radiologists make marginally more than hospitalists in the large metropolitan areas, if you can find a job. Just google it. You will do 3 years of IM, the first year of which is difficult (radiologist also have to tolerate this torture). But the 2nd and 3rd years are full of electives and easy rotations. There are plenty of hospitalist jobs in NY, LA, Chicago, Boston, San Diego, .... that pay 200-220K, one week on, one week off. By working extra shift you can make 250-300K. Good money. The only problem with hospitalist is that they are glorified interns.
Radiology is 6 to 7 years of education. You have to read 300-400 pages every months for four years or probably the rest of your life. The volume of each requisite is much more than the whole knowledge you need to PRACTICE IM. Yes, IM is very broad, but you don't need a broad knowledge to practice. But, in radiology you have to offer subspecialty reading in every field. You have to learn all the details of each Orthopedics procedure, otherwise they won't refer to you. And when you are done, the best you can find is a job which pays 180-200 K and is three hours from the nearest city. Forget about practicing in large metropolitan areas. They are supersaturated.

I know you may not believe what I say. You can go to the auntminnie.com (the ultimate radiology forum) and find people who are looking for jobs for 1.5 years despite having 3 fellowships in their pocket. You can go to the ACR job listing. You will see 120-130 jobs for 1100+ graduates. And most of these jobs are in the boonies and are mamo or IR (thoracentesis, para, PICCs and Abscess drainage).

This year the number of applicants will be less than the number of spots. Definitely big programs in large cities will fill. But smaller programs or programs in undesired areas will beg you to fill their spot.

to Hysty: You will definitely find a position this year in smaller areas. But you have to be a dictation assistant for you radiology attending for the next 7 years for 50K in an undesired area, while you can bank 250k*7 = 1,750,000 by then doing hospitalist in a large big city and better life style (half of the year you will be off and you will not have to read 10000 pages). And after 7 years you will have to stay in the boonies while you can continue your life in the large city as a hospitalist.
Doing radiology is stupid these days and it is more stupidity to do it after finishing an IM residency. A good way for you to go is to continue hospitalist job or do GI. GI has a better life style than radiology and you can make 2 times radiology, though I doubt they can maintain their high salaries in the near future. I predict their salaries will drop, but not as much as radiology. At least their life style is much better than radiology and they do not have to tolerate the mental grind of radiology.
 
nightflight said:
These days radiology competitiveness is on a par with Pediatrics and IM. New radiologists make marginally more than hospitalists in the large metropolitan areas, if you can find a job. Just google it. You will do 3 years of IM, the first year of which is difficult (radiologist also have to tolerate this torture). But the 2nd and 3rd years are full of electives and easy rotations. There are plenty of hospitalist jobs in NY, LA, Chicago, Boston, San Diego, .... that pay 200-220K, one week on, one week off. By working extra shift you can make 250-300K. Good money. The only problem with hospitalist is that they are glorified interns.
Radiology is 6 to 7 years of education. You have to read 300-400 pages every months for four years or probably the rest of your life. The volume of each requisite is much more than the whole knowledge you need to PRACTICE IM. Yes, IM is very broad, but you don't need a broad knowledge to practice. But, in radiology you have to offer subspecialty reading in every field. You have to learn all the details of each Orthopedics procedure, otherwise they won't refer to you. And when you are done, the best you can find is a job which pays 180-200 K and is three hours from the nearest city. Forget about practicing in large metropolitan areas. They are supersaturated.

I know you may not believe what I say. You can go to the auntminnie.com (the ultimate radiology forum) and find people who are looking for jobs for 1.5 years despite having 3 fellowships in their pocket. You can go to the ACR job listing. You will see 120-130 jobs for 1100+ graduates. And most of these jobs are in the boonies and are mamo or IR (thoracentesis, para, PICCs and Abscess drainage).

This year the number of applicants will be less than the number of spots. Definitely big programs in large cities will fill. But smaller programs or programs in undesired areas will beg you to fill their spot.

to Hysty: You will definitely find a position this year in smaller areas. But you have to be a dictation assistant for you radiology attending for the next 7 years for 50K in an undesired area, while you can bank 250k*7 = 1,750,000 by then doing hospitalist in a large big city and better life style (half of the year you will be off and you will not have to read 10000 pages). And after 7 years you will have to stay in the boonies while you can continue your life in the large city as a hospitalist.
Doing radiology is stupid these days and it is more stupidity to do it after finishing an IM residency. A good way for you to go is to continue hospitalist job or do GI. GI has a better life style than radiology and you can make 2 times radiology, though I doubt they can maintain their high salaries in the near future. I predict their salaries will drop, but not as much as radiology. At least their life style is much better than radiology and they do not have to tolerate the mental grind of radiology.
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I'm going to ignore your negativity about the field because honestly, my mind is made up, I'm not going back, I can't see myself doing anything else. In addition, I have an autoimmune condition which makes basically every other field of medicine a deathtrap for me because being on my feet for too long wrecks havok on my body, radiology is perfect for me for reasons far beyond my interest and the money. I can spend most of my day sitting, standing at intervals of my chosing, stretching while i work, and not looking weird on the floor.

having said all that, and put money and job opportunities on the side.. what fellowships in radiology do you find most promising? I've always been interested in Neuroradiology for some reason, I just find the brain and spine fascinating, but not enough to want to do neurology. Pediatric radiology also seems really cool, they get to a lot of procedures. I think I would be bored by chest radiology, but I do realize it's important. IF everything works out perfectly, I want to do my fellowship in VIR and work as long as I can until my back can no longer handle it, and then tone it down and read films for the rest of my career. I love surgery, but I could never survive there. I love how the procedures in VIR at much shorter (most of them), and you can do the procedure, get off your feet for 10-15 min, then repeat. That kind of career I can handle, I can't handle 3 hrs of standing rounds every single morning, or 3 hr procedures back to back in the OR. I also love the puzzle of figuring out the subtleties of films. It's funny watching residents on the floor think they're reading correctly and even I know they mis-read the film. I think the field is just so amazingly detail orientated and challenge that will keep me going until the day I retire. The job market I'm sure won't be berries & cream (to steal from my least favorite starburst commercial ever), but I have faith that things will work out, because I love the field, and I can wake up every morning knowing I'm going to work because I love it, and not dreading s***** rounds all morning long every day for the rest of my life.
 
Last edited:
PokerDoc,

It's great to see how passionate you are about radiology, and I wish you lots of luck. I would be wary about blanket statements regarding which fellowships are "most promising." Job markets are cyclical, and salaries are generally going down across the board. You should choose areas of specialization that you enjoy. That's a general statement. For you specifically, I would think twice about pursuing fellowship training in VIR. The high-end procedures are extremely long, and being an IR doc requires pretty substantial stamina. See how it goes during residency, but I just wanted to give you a heads up. As an alternative, realize that you can be a "hybrid" interventionalist by pursuing fellowship training in diagnostic subspecialties and performing procedures related to them. For instance, many body imagers routinely do biopsies, drainages, sometimes even cryo/RFA/IRE for cancer. Additionally, many in private practice are required to do their share of so-called "light IR," which entails, PICCs, paras, thoras, routine drainages, biopsies. These are generally shorter procedures and can be a nice way to break up the day pounding out diagnostic cases. High-end angio cases, biliary work, TIPS, and others can be endless, and they require plenty of follow-up on the floors. Also realize that the current model of IR is a clinical one, and requires a heavy presence in clinic and on the floors, contrary to the old stereotype of a "non-patient care" specialty. Just food for thought. Good luck with your training!
 
Thanks for the tips! I did notice some procedures were quite long, but the difference was that the fellow was doing one of those for every 3-4 short procedures. And she always was able to get off her feet in between each case. It was a stark contrast from surgery. If I can sit down for 10-15 min between cases I recharge pretty quick. I have my routine down pretty good, I just had most trouble when I wasn't allowed to move for 3 hours straight (being a med student scrubbed in the OR or rounding with attendings who like to tell the patients life story and teach forever in the hallways).

I think part of the problem is that as a med student, you appear disinterested if you lean against the wall or start moving around/stretching in the OR when ur uncomfortable. As I move forward in my career, If i need to take 5 to crack my back, I can just do it (and i started doing that toward the end of the year this year too, not caring as much what people thought). So I don't think itll be as bad.. its just tougher as a 3rd year med student when the microscope on you is pretty strict.
 
nightflight said:
  • radiology competitiveness is on a par with pediatrics and im.

  • new radiologists make marginally more than hospitalists in the large metropolitan areas, if you can find a job.

  • radiology is 6 to 7 years of education. And when you are done, the best you can find is a job which pays 180-200 k and is three hours from the nearest city.

  • you can go to the auntminnie.com (the ultimate radiology forum) and find people who are looking for jobs for 1.5 years despite having 3 fellowships in their pocket. You will see 120-130 jobs for 1100+ graduates. And most of these jobs are in the boonies and are mamo or ir (thoracentesis, para, piccs and abscess drainage).

  • (as a radiology resident, you will) be a dictation assistant for you radiology attending for the next 7 years for 50k in an undesired area

  • and after 7 years you will have to stay in the boonies
Click to expand...

Chopra, very well said. However, I think you left off a few of your usual points. I think, for completeness sake, we should fill some more of these in for you.

As a radiologist...

  • People will think you fix radios for a living.

  • You will have no glory. Nurses won't respect you, and women won't want to date you. Instead, they prefer being courted by orthopedists, general surgeons, and hospitalists--all of who make double the salary that current radiologists make--and in the next 2 years, perhaps triple that.

  • Your will work as a meaningless bookkeeper. Mentioning incidental minutia that no one else reads or even cares about. Reading meaningless studies from the ER & ICU that are ordered for record purposes. Atelectasis. CHF. DJD. Hardware is correct position, etc. Your only true value is to the family medicine physician, and even he has a bigger bank account than you, and a wife with bigger breasts....

  • Specialists don't even read your reports. In fact, they can read it better than you, and will call you out on your frequent misses, which you'll go home and agonize about. They already realize this, and radiologists know this too. This is why the ACR has pushed for specialist radiologists. But it won't matter, because radiologists are the ghosts of medicine, sitting alone in a dark closet, with their pants around their ankles, as they engage in mental masturbation with their useless self. Soon, after reimbursements start to dwindle,specialists will come after imaging. Evidence points to the fact that they already are. Cards took echo. They're going to take over chest. Vascular surgery will overtake IR. Oncologists will get into IR and overtake that section. Radiology's glory days are long over.

  • You will soon be replaced by a computer. Or outsourced to China. You might even have to work in China, because there are no jobs in the US. Only jobs in the boonies, making 40k/yr, reading mamms and draining abscesses.

....I know I'm missing some, what else?
 
nightflight said:
These days radiology competitiveness is on a par with Pediatrics and IM. New radiologists make marginally more than hospitalists in the large metropolitan areas, if you can find a job. Just google it. You will do 3 years of IM, the first year of which is difficult (radiologist also have to tolerate this torture). But the 2nd and 3rd years are full of electives and easy rotations. There are plenty of hospitalist jobs in NY, LA, Chicago, Boston, San Diego, .... that pay 200-220K, one week on, one week off. By working extra shift you can make 250-300K. Good money. The only problem with hospitalist is that they are glorified interns.
Radiology is 6 to 7 years of education. You have to read 300-400 pages every months for four years or probably the rest of your life. The volume of each requisite is much more than the whole knowledge you need to PRACTICE IM. Yes, IM is very broad, but you don't need a broad knowledge to practice. But, in radiology you have to offer subspecialty reading in every field. You have to learn all the details of each Orthopedics procedure, otherwise they won't refer to you. And when you are done, the best you can find is a job which pays 180-200 K and is three hours from the nearest city. Forget about practicing in large metropolitan areas. They are supersaturated.

I know you may not believe what I say. You can go to the auntminnie.com (the ultimate radiology forum) and find people who are looking for jobs for 1.5 years despite having 3 fellowships in their pocket. You can go to the ACR job listing. You will see 120-130 jobs for 1100+ graduates. And most of these jobs are in the boonies and are mamo or IR (thoracentesis, para, PICCs and Abscess drainage).

This year the number of applicants will be less than the number of spots. Definitely big programs in large cities will fill. But smaller programs or programs in undesired areas will beg you to fill their spot.

to Hysty: You will definitely find a position this year in smaller areas. But you have to be a dictation assistant for you radiology attending for the next 7 years for 50K in an undesired area, while you can bank 250k*7 = 1,750,000 by then doing hospitalist in a large big city and better life style (half of the year you will be off and you will not have to read 10000 pages). And after 7 years you will have to stay in the boonies while you can continue your life in the large city as a hospitalist.
Doing radiology is stupid these days and it is more stupidity to do it after finishing an IM residency. A good way for you to go is to continue hospitalist job or do GI. GI has a better life style than radiology and you can make 2 times radiology, though I doubt they can maintain their high salaries in the near future. I predict their salaries will drop, but not as much as radiology. At least their life style is much better than radiology and they do not have to tolerate the mental grind of radiology.
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this is laughable
 
jahbrony said:
Chopra, very well said. However, I think you left off a few of your usual points. I think, for completeness sake, we should fill some more of these in for you.

As a radiologist...

  • People will think you fix radios for a living.

  • You will have no glory. Nurses won't respect you, and women won't want to date you. Instead, they prefer being courted by orthopedists, general surgeons, and hospitalists--all of who make double the salary that current radiologists make--and in the next 2 years, perhaps triple that.

  • Your will work as a meaningless bookkeeper. Mentioning incidental minutia that no one else reads or even cares about. Reading meaningless studies from the ER & ICU that are ordered for record purposes. Atelectasis. CHF. DJD. Hardware is correct position, etc. Your only true value is to the family medicine physician, and even he has a bigger bank account than you, and a wife with bigger breasts....

  • Specialists don't even read your reports. In fact, they can read it better than you, and will call you out on your frequent misses, which you'll go home and agonize about. They already realize this, and radiologists know this too. This is why the ACR has pushed for specialist radiologists. But it won't matter, because radiologists are the ghosts of medicine, sitting alone in a dark closet, with their pants around their ankles, as they engage in mental masturbation with their useless self. Soon, after reimbursements start to dwindle,specialists will come after imaging. Evidence points to the fact that they already are. Cards took echo. They're going to take over chest. Vascular surgery will overtake IR. Oncologists will get into IR and overtake that section. Radiology's glory days are long over.

  • You will soon be replaced by a computer. Or outsourced to China. You might even have to work in China, because there are no jobs in the US. Only jobs in the boonies, making 40k/yr, reading mamms and draining abscesses.

....I know I'm missing some, what else?
Click to expand...

Some others:

- Call: It's ridiculous. You will learn to PRAY you could relive your glory days as an intern. The pager goes off all night, and the list just keeps growing and growing. Gone are the days of sleeping on call. You will have to suffer this for NINE WHOLE WEEKS during residency. Not to mention, even some Private practice groups are starting to *gasp* take call again after breaking their telerads contracts.

- Hours: It's not a cush gig anymore. Nowadays, radiologists have to be in the hospital at 8 AM, and usually can't even leave until 5:30, sometimes 6. And no more lunch breaks, either. Now you have to eat at your computer while fighting the ever growing list.

- Volume: Sometimes looking at a computer all day can be exhausting. It is like taking Step 1 every day, but a billion times harder. Sometimes your scrolling finger hurts at the end too
 
Radiology has its ups and downs for sure. But I think some of the attacks here are a little unfair.

Yes, some specialists have an edge when it comes to interpreting imaging that pertains to their specialty, not not all. And often those specialists have conflicts of interest when it comes to those studies (i.e. if you call that intrasubstance degenerative a meniscal tear you can do a scope and bank). Having a group of people with nothing to gain from calling or not calling something protects everyone. Besides, most specialists don't have time to read every study as thoroughly, and would often miss things (ever hear of satisfaction of search)? It's a lot easier to interpret a study when you only look for what is relevant to your specialty. I've seen orthopods call bone infarcts chondroid tumors and all kinds of crazy stuff. They know how to read degenerative findings and trauma but beyond that they can be quite helpless.

Besides, primary care physicians and most non-surgical specialists can't read imaging to save their lives and rely on radiology a lot more than you think. Everytime I'm on call I realize how bad it would be were I not here.

Rads popularity may be a bit down... but everything is cyclic. It was down in the early 90's too and came back with a vengeance. If you only every buy into something when it's popular you'll miss some great investment opportunities. And if I have to choose 5 years of rads plus 1 year of fellowship vs 3 years of medicine plus 3 years of some medicine fellowship, I'll stick with rads.
 
CaptKirk said:
Radiology has its ups and downs for sure. But I think some of the attacks here are a little unfair.

Yes, some specialists have an edge when it comes to interpreting imaging that pertains to their specialty, not not all. And often those specialists have conflicts of interest when it comes to those studies (i.e. if you call that intrasubstance degenerative a meniscal tear you can do a scope and bank). Having a group of people with nothing to gain from calling or not calling something protects everyone. Besides, most specialists don't have time to read every study as thoroughly, and would often miss things (ever hear of satisfaction of search)? It's a lot easier to interpret a study when you only look for what is relevant to your specialty. I've seen orthopods call bone infarcts chondroid tumors and all kinds of crazy stuff. They know how to read degenerative findings and trauma but beyond that they can be quite helpless.

Besides, primary care physicians and most non-surgical specialists can't read imaging to save their lives and rely on radiology a lot more than you think. Everytime I'm on call I realize how bad it would be were I not here.

Rads popularity may be a bit down... but everything is cyclic. It was down in the early 90's too and came back with a vengeance. If you only every buy into something when it's popular you'll miss some great investment opportunities. And if I have to choose 5 years of rads plus 1 year of fellowship vs 3 years of medicine plus 3 years of some medicine fellowship, I'll stick with rads.
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Well yea, it drives me nuts on multiple levels when people say other specialties are learning to read and won't need radiologists. Every doc SHOULD look at their own studies they ordered. Mistakes happen and it is just good practice.

One thing, it assumes that learning is some static thing. You reach that level and *poof* you know everything you need to know. That isn't how it works. If it were that easy, then radiologists would be picking up knee replacements and other procedures for funsies. Reading images is just like any other skill. You may become fairly good at really fast, but it takes time and ungodly amounts of practice to become a true expert.

They may be ok at reading images for their particular body part or region, but as you noted, one must also remove bias from the equation. I've seen surgical oncologists struggle with imaging that they DO see often because it is in his best interest to become the expert at operating and not at reading studies.
 
MossPoh said:
Well yea, it drives me nuts on multiple levels when people say other specialties are learning to read and won't need radiologists. Every doc SHOULD look at their own studies they ordered. Mistakes happen and it is just good practice.

One thing, it assumes that learning is some static thing. You reach that level and *poof* you know everything you need to know. That isn't how it works. If it were that easy, then radiologists would be picking up knee replacements and other procedures for funsies. Reading images is just like any other skill. You may become fairly good at really fast, but it takes time and ungodly amounts of practice to become a true expert.

They may be ok at reading images for their particular body part or region, but as you noted, one must also remove bias from the equation. I've seen surgical oncologists struggle with imaging that they DO see often because it is in his best interest to become the expert at operating and not at reading studies.
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It is really irritating I agree, but it doesn't bother me enough that I ever feel the need to defend the profession to people who criticize it. I just say, well okay then good luck, and just change the subject. I'm so comfortable with the decisions I've made and I'm going to be happy as a radiologist, I don't feel the need to justify my chosen profession at all, and I think most radiologists feel the same way.
 
cowme said:
Some others:

- Call: It's ridiculous. You will learn to PRAY you could relive your glory days as an intern. The pager goes off all night, and the list just keeps growing and growing. Gone are the days of sleeping on call. You will have to suffer this for NINE WHOLE WEEKS during residency. Not to mention, even some Private practice groups are starting to *gasp* take call again after breaking their telerads contracts.

- Hours: It's not a cush gig anymore. Nowadays, radiologists have to be in the hospital at 8 AM, and usually can't even leave until 5:30, sometimes 6. And no more lunch breaks, either. Now you have to eat at your computer while fighting the ever growing list.

- Volume: Sometimes looking at a computer all day can be exhausting. It is like taking Step 1 every day, but a billion times harder. Sometimes your scrolling finger hurts at the end too
Click to expand...

I think we've covered all the Chopra/AshleyMadison/Chosen1 talking points now :laugh:
 
officedepot said:
This is just from my quick comparison. Feel free to add/debate/discuss.


I think overall the competitiveness of rads is drifting down despite the rising scores. I attribute this mainly to the extremely high/rising match rate, the lower number of applicants, etc. Agreed that it is still very hard to get those "top" programs but that will always be true.

Overall it's not that difficult to match in rads so long as you apply broadly. It seems people with lower scores didn't apply as much going from 2009 to 2011 accounting for the rising scores this year (I guess at this point it could be argued then that those with higher scores account for a larger pool of applicants making it more competitive BUT I would counter and say so long as those on the lower half of the spectrum apply broadly their chances of matching are MUCH better now and are increasing).

it's interesting to note that the number of people going into family medicine (US schools) increased by about 200 peeps. Gen surg increased by almost 70 (match rate decreased from 85 to 80). Internal medicine increased by more than 200. Neuro increased by 60. etc

So clearly the popularity of radiology is going down probably for various reasons. The competitiveness of other fields is actually starting to go up it seems.


edit:
I will add that anecdotally this is true just looking at the make-up of my school. I swear maybe 2 other people besides myself out of more than 150 are interested in rads. More and more like gen surg, ophtho, ortho, peds, and IM. Even neuro has jumped from 1 in previous years to about 7 now.
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Back to the actual reason for this thread...

I disagree that the competitiveness of radiology is going down. It is easier to match into the field, but harder to match into competitive programs. It's the mid-range applicants who left between 2009 and 2011. The number of people with >260 increased from 40 to 66, and there was a similar increase for scores between 251 and 260. However, there were 70 fewer applicants with scores from 231-240! More than 1/4 of the applicant pool scored over 250 last season, as a result of these trends.

It's not "still very hard" to get into a top program - it's harder. But it's easier to match, if that's all you want to do. There's more self-selection going on compared to a few years ago, which makes it easier for us who are interested in radiology as a career and not just to make $$.

That's interesting that fewer people at your school are interested in rads. At my med school, at least 6-7/120 are applying (of those that I know - could be a few more). It's certainly not down across the board.
 
Nearly 20 people are applying to Radiology from my school (upper tier), up from 10 the year prior.
 
omg i just bought Mass effect 2!!...crazy
 
This thread is now hijacked. lolol
 
nightflight said:
These days radiology competitiveness is on a par with Pediatrics and IM. New radiologists make marginally more than hospitalists in the large metropolitan areas, if you can find a job. Just google it. You will do 3 years of IM, the first year of which is difficult (radiologist also have to tolerate this torture). But the 2nd and 3rd years are full of electives and easy rotations. There are plenty of hospitalist jobs in NY, LA, Chicago, Boston, San Diego, .... that pay 200-220K, one week on, one week off. By working extra shift you can make 250-300K. Good money. The only problem with hospitalist is that they are glorified interns.
Radiology is 6 to 7 years of education. You have to read 300-400 pages every months for four years or probably the rest of your life. The volume of each requisite is much more than the whole knowledge you need to PRACTICE IM. Yes, IM is very broad, but you don't need a broad knowledge to practice. But, in radiology you have to offer subspecialty reading in every field. You have to learn all the details of each Orthopedics procedure, otherwise they won't refer to you. And when you are done, the best you can find is a job which pays 180-200 K and is three hours from the nearest city. Forget about practicing in large metropolitan areas. They are supersaturated.

I know you may not believe what I say. You can go to the auntminnie.com (the ultimate radiology forum) and find people who are looking for jobs for 1.5 years despite having 3 fellowships in their pocket. You can go to the ACR job listing. You will see 120-130 jobs for 1100+ graduates. And most of these jobs are in the boonies and are mamo or IR (thoracentesis, para, PICCs and Abscess drainage).

This year the number of applicants will be less than the number of spots. Definitely big programs in large cities will fill. But smaller programs or programs in undesired areas will beg you to fill their spot.

to Hysty: You will definitely find a position this year in smaller areas. But you have to be a dictation assistant for you radiology attending for the next 7 years for 50K in an undesired area, while you can bank 250k*7 = 1,750,000 by then doing hospitalist in a large big city and better life style (half of the year you will be off and you will not have to read 10000 pages). And after 7 years you will have to stay in the boonies while you can continue your life in the large city as a hospitalist.
Doing radiology is stupid these days and it is more stupidity to do it after finishing an IM residency. A good way for you to go is to continue hospitalist job or do GI. GI has a better life style than radiology and you can make 2 times radiology, though I doubt they can maintain their high salaries in the near future. I predict their salaries will drop, but not as much as radiology. At least their life style is much better than radiology and they do not have to tolerate the mental grind of radiology.
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Hahah GI making twice that of a radiologist? This guy is funny :laugh:
 
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