Duke (Durham) vs. Wash U (St. Louis)

[YOYO230]

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okay guys! i need serious feedback. we've kinda started a discussion about this on another thread but after thinking about it for sometime i've decided the subject needs it's own thread. my boyfriend has been accepted to both Duke and Wash U....he is pretty much stuck on which one he wants/will attend and i thought i'd get some feedback about both. I know he likes Duke for curriculum reasons however Durham might not be his top choice to live. Wash U of course is a great school as well and i'm sure he would be more than happy to attend there. sooooooo has anyone been/attended/lived in either Durham or St. Louis. how was the cost of living/environment/surronding areas/entertainment etc? what about the schools? how to they compare to one another? any feedback is greatly appreciated! hopefully once we visit both schools/cities again for second look he will have a better feel for where he would like to spend the next 4-5 years of his life 🙂

 

[LADoc00]

okay guys! i need serious feedback. we've kinda started a discussion about this on another thread but after thinking about it for sometime i've decided the subject needs it's own thread. my boyfriend has been accepted to both Duke and Wash U....he is pretty much stuck on which one he wants/will attend and i thought i'd get some feedback about both. I know he likes Duke for curriculum reasons however Durham might not be his top choice to live. Wash U of course is a great school as well and i'm sure he would be more than happy to attend there. sooooooo has anyone been/attended/lived in either Durham or St. Louis. how was the cost of living/environment/surronding areas/entertainment etc? what about the schools? how to they compare to one another? any feedback is greatly appreciated! hopefully once we visit both schools/cities again for second look he will have a better feel for where he would like to spend the next 4-5 years of his life 🙂

St. Louis was crazy dirt cheap when I lived there(like a new house near the city was under 100K), Im sure Durham is a higher cost of living. Both are top 5 schools, grats to your BF.

But aside from that, you guys are dating right? I would definitely let him make the decision free and clear of your influence. I had an ex push me and that becomes the nidus for serious resentment especially under the stress of MS.

Not to be too much of a dickwad, but the collective "WE" arent going to med school, are we?

 

[YOYO230]

St. Louis was crazy dirt cheap when I lived there(like a new house near the city was under 100K), Im sure Durham is a higher cost of living. Both are top 5 schools, grats to your BF.

But aside from that, you guys are dating right? I would definitely let him make the decision free and clear of your influence. I had an ex push me and that becomes the nidus for serious resentment especially under the stress of MS.

Not to be too much of a dickwad, but the collective "WE" arent going to med school, are we?

thanks for the info about st. louis....i've heard great things about both places.

the collective "we" aren't going to med school. however, we've been dating since we were 15 (we are now 21). he likes both schools and would be happy at either one. now it's coming down to actually making the decision. i'm sure a lot of his choice will do with money/scholarships/fin. aid.

i don't feel in any way i'm pressuring him to choose one school over the other. however, he understands that i need to have as many opportunities for schooling (masters in education) jobs, and other factors that include entertainment/hobbies/ etc.

thanks again for the info! 🙂

 

[YOYO230]

St. Louis was crazy dirt cheap when I lived there(like a new house near the city was under 100K), Im sure Durham is a higher cost of living. Both are top 5 schools, grats to your BF.

But aside from that, you guys are dating right? I would definitely let him make the decision free and clear of your influence. I had an ex push me and that becomes the nidus for serious resentment especially under the stress of MS.

Not to be too much of a dickwad, but the collective "WE" arent going to med school, are we?

thanks for the info about st. louis....i've heard great things about both places.

the collective "we" aren't going to med school. however, we've been dating since we were 15 (we are now 21). we've been together for over 6 years and have consulted each other in all major decisions. he likes both schools and would be happy at either one. now it's coming down to actually making the decision. i'm sure a lot of his choice will do with money/scholarships/fin. aid.

i don't feel in any way i'm pressuring him to choose one school over the other. however, he understands that i need to have as many opportunities for schooling (masters in education) jobs, and other factors that include entertainment/hobbies/ etc.

thanks again for the info! 🙂

 

[LADoc00]

the collective "we" aren't going to med school. however, we've been dating since we were 15 (we are now 21). 🙂

Not to sound like your mom, but might it be best to date around a bit?? Since you were both 15?! That is crazy, seriously. Im always very skeptical of the whole "marrying the first person you dated/slept with" situation. Im not saying go out and be a skank, but maybe having at least a couple of boyfriends under your belt before you make a plunge of this magnitude would be advisable.

I'm just trying to be rational here.

 

[YOYO230]

Not to sound like your mom, but might it be best to date around a bit?? Since you were both 15?! That is crazy, seriously. Im always very skeptical of the whole "marrying the first person you dated/slept with" situation. Im not saying go out and be a skank, but maybe having at least a couple of boyfriends under your belt before you make a plunge of this magnitude would be advisable.

I'm just trying to be rational here.

your rationality is appreciated! i will admit it does sound crazy for us to have been together for so long and now moving off together without being married/engaged or whatever. however, i couldn't imagine it any other way. and if i COULD imagine it another way, i know i wouldn't be happy without him in my life. i know what you mean though...i'm guessing your main point is how do i know i am happy with him and not someone else? i mean this is going to sound weird but i just know. he is my best friend and has helped me through so much. i couldn't/don't want to picture him dating someone else and i know he'd feel the same.

are you currently in med school now? if so, what year?

 

[1Path]

i mean this is going to sound weird but i just know. he is my best friend and has helped me through so much. i couldn't/don't want to picture him dating someone else and i know he'd feel the same

I've seen it too many times to count, don't follow a man ANYWHERE unless he wants to take the relationship to another level. There really isn't a "WE" until you get engaged or married.

 

[YOYO230]

I've seen it too many times to count, don't follow a man ANYWHERE unless he wants to take the relationship to another level. There really isn't a "WE" until you get engaged or married.

this thread was started to discuss Duke and Wash U NOT my relationship. if you have any input about the schools/cities i would greatly appreciate it.

 

[1Path]

this thread was started to discuss Duke and Wash U NOT my relationship. if you have any input about the schools/cities i would greatly appreciate it.

My bad, you're right. There's absolutely NOTHING to discuss w/o a commitment.

 

[vesper9]

yoyo,

unfortunately I don't know about duke or stl...but I really felt I needed to give you some words of support in response to some of these rude posts.

please god you do not need "a couple of boyfriends under your belt" to make rational decisions about relationships...especially if you are in a healthy and committed relationship right now. Anecdotally, I know a good number of people who started dating young and are still together (sometimes decades later).....I just don't understand how having relationships (a few of which would obviously have to fail if you needed "a couple") would necessarily help you?

and please lord christ do not marry someone or become engaged simply to secure yur place in someone's life. Primarily b/c an engagement means **** (can be broken off, ask my bf's ex 😛 ) and a marriage often means less (umm aren't pretty much everyone's parents divorced by now?). It also obviously never occurred to 1Path that not everyone values marriage as much as him/her. And "following" someone somewhere does not mean giving up your freedom (to leave, move, etc) or the ability to calculate risks and then make intelligent decisions. I've dealt with similar misguided criticism, as have other friends making school decision, in the end no one but you and your SO can really know what's right. For others to judge you on that decision (particularly without ever ever meeting you) is sad.

👍 I think it's great that you're trying to inform yourself about your (mutual) decision. I think it will help prevent a lot of resentment and other issues in the future. I know my bf and I have talked through a lot of the things that will impact our lives together, even if it's moving within our city. And simply talking about it, does not mean you're forcing anything on him. I'm shocked that anyone would tell you to keep your mouth shut b/c frankly that IS a dickwad and unfair thing to say.

Here are a few really general resources I use for finding stuff in whatever city I live in:

http://craigslist.org A great site for apartment/house listings, jobs, for sale items, free stuff, discussion, activities, etc...Like the classifieds page, but generally free to post and very local. (select the city you want on the right hand side)

http://www.citysearch.com/ I use this mainly for restaurant reviews...but there is a ton of other stuff reviewed too.

http://www.chowhound.com/main.html#boards message board for restaurants/foodies...ummm find me a good sushi place and I can live anywhere!


GOOD LUCK!

 

[1Path]

It also obviously never occurred to 1Path that not everyone values marriage as much as him/her.

This is NOT about how much one values marriage or not. This is about self-worth and self-value and the fact that so many very young men will do one of the following upon becoming a med student or resident doctor w/o a commitment:

1) Dump her for a fellow med student since they spend a LOT of time studying and he eventually gets attracted to women with goals that don't revolve around him.

2) Dump her for a beautiful bimbo.

3) Last but not least, regularily sing the phrase "It's hard out here for a Pimp" and make that his theme song!

What I realize is that a generation of young women have really cheapened themselves and I can't blame the men for taking advantage. Live in maid, cook, sex kitten all without commitment??? That's a dam good deal for ANY single man! 😉

 

[TommyGunn04]

this thread was started to discuss Duke and Wash U NOT my relationship. if you have any input about the schools/cities i would greatly appreciate it.

I'm a Duke Med student about to graduate, and I can't say enough great things about Duke and Durham. Like your boyfriend, I really LOVED the Duke curriculum, and that's why I came here. In retrospect, it was a fantastic decision, and it enabled me to get a second degree without losing another year of my life. And knowing what I know now about medical education, it was an even better choice than I realized at the time!

While I'm a Northerner and was initially skeptical about life in Durham, I've really grown to love it here, especially the low cost of living. I know that homes here are actually significantly cheaper than those in St. Louis, so I expect that rent is as well. To give you an idea, you can easily get a 1-br apartment that's pretty spacious and quite nice for $450-600/month depending on the particular area. And if you split a 2-br or 3-br with others, you can get down to $300/mo easily. Finances are tight when you're borrowing it all, so the low cost of living in Durham really helps make life more comfortable as a "poor student." You pretty much need to have a car, but I saw that as a bonus, and really love that I'm able to afford one here given the low cost of living.

I don't know much about Wash U's medical school, but I've visited St. Louis to interview at Wash U for residency and I left rather unimpressed. While it's one of the largest hospitals in the country, I felt that its size was rather unwieldy, and that the city really didn't offer anything above and beyond what we have here in Durham, except that it's more "urban." I think I'd feel pretty lost there on the wards as a student given the hospital's mammoth size. Wash U also tends to have the reputation of being very basic-science research-dominated, and has an enormous MD/PhD program. This will definitely impact your first two years of coursework. I've heard from friends who went there that it tends to make for a rather uber-type-A group of med students, although I'm sure that's not true of everyone, and is perhaps not a useful stereotype. I'm just repeating what I've heard from people who've actually been there. Duke, on the other hand, is more diverse in its research focuses, and allows for students to get into fantastic clinical research, do an MPH, get an MBA, a JD, or even do 3rd year research in the humanities! It's astoundingly flexible, and so many of us have really benefitted from it.

I'd come here in a heartbeat if I had to choose again! Feel free to PM me with any further questions.

 

[Stroganoff]

TommyGunn04, was it brutal doing MS 1 & 2 in one year? I value my sleep and sanity (what's left, at least). Does it affect Step 1 scores? It would be awesome to pick up an MBA or something in the off-year.

 

[OzDDS]

This is NOT about how much one values marriage or not. This is about self-worth and self-value and the fact that so many very young men will do one of the following upon becoming a med student or resident doctor w/o a commitment:

1) Dump her for a fellow med student since they spend a LOT of time studying and he eventually gets attracted to women with goals that don't revolve around him.

2) Dump her for a beautiful bimbo.

3) Last but not least, regularily sing the phrase "It's hard out here for a Pimp" and make that his theme song!

What I realize is that a generation of young women have really cheapened themselves and I can't blame the men for taking advantage. Live in maid, cook, sex kitten all without commitment??? That's a dam good deal for ANY single man! 😉

Damn straight! 😎

 

[OzDDS]

I've seen it too many times to count, don't follow a man ANYWHERE unless he wants to take the relationship to another level. There really isn't a "WE" until you get engaged or married.

I completely agree with you on this one! 👍

 

[YOYO230]

yoyo,

unfortunately I don't know about duke or stl...but I really felt I needed to give you some words of support in response to some of these rude posts.

please god you do not need "a couple of boyfriends under your belt" to make rational decisions about relationships...especially if you are in a healthy and committed relationship right now. Anecdotally, I know a good number of people who started dating young and are still together (sometimes decades later).....I just don't understand how having relationships (a few of which would obviously have to fail if you needed "a couple") would necessarily help you?

and please lord christ do not marry someone or become engaged simply to secure yur place in someone's life. Primarily b/c an engagement means **** (can be broken off, ask my bf's ex 😛 ) and a marriage often means less (umm aren't pretty much everyone's parents divorced by now?). It also obviously never occurred to 1Path that not everyone values marriage as much as him/her. And "following" someone somewhere does not mean giving up your freedom (to leave, move, etc) or the ability to calculate risks and then make intelligent decisions. I've dealt with similar misguided criticism, as have other friends making school decision, in the end no one but you and your SO can really know what's right. For others to judge you on that decision (particularly without ever ever meeting you) is sad.

👍 I think it's great that you're trying to inform yourself about your (mutual) decision. I think it will help prevent a lot of resentment and other issues in the future. I know my bf and I have talked through a lot of the things that will impact our lives together, even if it's moving within our city. And simply talking about it, does not mean you're forcing anything on him. I'm shocked that anyone would tell you to keep your mouth shut b/c frankly that IS a dickwad and unfair thing to say.

Here are a few really general resources I use for finding stuff in whatever city I live in:

http://craigslist.org A great site for apartment/house listings, jobs, for sale items, free stuff, discussion, activities, etc...Like the classifieds page, but generally free to post and very local. (select the city you want on the right hand side)

http://www.citysearch.com/ I use this mainly for restaurant reviews...but there is a ton of other stuff reviewed too.

http://www.chowhound.com/main.html#boards message board for restaurants/foodies...ummm find me a good sushi place and I can live anywhere!


GOOD LUCK!

Thanks a lot for you added confidence. It's hard to take the negative aspects of being with a med student from someone who has never met you! And thanks SO much for those links! That should be VERY helpful in searching for houses in both areas. I agree with everything you said and I appreciate you understanding where I come from 🙂

 

[SaraL124]

This is NOT about how much one values marriage or not. This is about self-worth and self-value and the fact that so many very young men will do one of the following upon becoming a med student or resident doctor w/o a commitment:

1) Dump her for a fellow med student since they spend a LOT of time studying and he eventually gets attracted to women with goals that don't revolve around him.

Who ever said that her goals completely revolve around him?

What I realize is that a generation of young women have really cheapened themselves and I can't blame the men for taking advantage. Live in maid, cook, sex kitten all without commitment??? That's a dam good deal for ANY single man! 😉

This is a ridicuous comment. What's committment? A ring and a piece of paper? Divorce is so easy nowadays that who's to say marriage or engagement means anything more than actually just living together and being in a committed relationship. They are obviously committed and making this deicsion together. From what the OP has said, her boyfriend is taking her needs into consideration as well as his own in this decision. More importantly, why shouldn't this be a mutual decision? The OP came in here looking for advice about cities and I think the people in this forum have been hurtful and ridiculous in focusing on her relationship rather than her original question.

 

[YOYO230]

Who ever said that her goals completely revolve around him?



This is a ridicuous comment. What's committment? A ring and a piece of paper? Divorce is so easy nowadays that who's to say marriage or engagement means anything more than actually just living together and being in a committed relationship. They are obviously committed and making this deicsion together. From what the OP has said, her boyfriend is taking her needs into consideration as well as his own in this decision. More importantly, why shouldn't this be a mutual decision? The OP came in here looking for advice about cities and I think the people in this forum have been hurtful and ridiculous in focusing on her relationship rather than her original question.

thanks sara...i appreciate any positive feedback i can get...and YES they did dodge the orginal question

 

[1Path]

Who ever said that her goals completely revolve around him?.

Neither Duke nor Wash U rank in the top 50 of graduate education programs in the US. Both Duke AND Wash U are top 10 schools. This fact alone speaks VOLUMES about whose making the best educational choices here and it's NOT the OP. 👎

This is a ridicuous comment. What's committment? A ring and a piece of paper?

Listen, if you want to shack up with a man you're not committed to giving him full benefits, be my guest. And since you're quoting divorce stats, people who shack up are more likely to end up divorced. Now what?

To answer the question, Durham is far nicer than St.Louis. But I were the OP and looking to make the best of MY education, I'd be looking at places to live like Boston (Harvard) or NYC (Columbia). HE'S shooting for top schools, so why shouldn't she? Oh yeah I know, she's in love.

PS- Somewhere a choir of dudes are reading this thread and laughing their a$$e$ off in agreement. HE may even be one of them! 😉

 

[DireWolf]

I'm from STL and would be happy to answer any specific questions you have about it.

 

[YOYO230]

Neither Duke nor Wash U rank in the top 50 of graduate education programs in the US. Both Duke AND Wash U are top 10 schools. This fact alone speaks VOLUMES about whose making the best educational choices here and it's NOT the OP. 👎

Listen, if you want to shack up with a man you're not committed to giving him full benefits, be my guest. And since you're quoting divorce stats, people who shack up are more likely to end up divorced. Now what?

To answer the question, Durham is far nicer than St.Louis. But I were the OP and looking to make the best of MY education, I'd be looking at places to live like Boston (Harvard) or NYC (Columbia). HE'S shooting for top schools, so why shouldn't she? Oh yeah I know, she's in love.

PS- Somewhere a choir of dudes are reading this thread and laughing their a$$e$ off in agreement. HE may even be one of them! 😉

first of all i wouldn't be attend wash u or duke for graduate programs. in both cities there is a plethora of colleges (GOOD ONES WITH GREAT GRADUATE PROGRAMS). and i'm not going to address me relationship issues that have been discussed on here b/c they it is NONE of your business and considering you have discussed YOUR personal experience with relationships (whether your not your married/divorced) why would i take your advice?

glad to know that if you could get into those schools you mentioned you would go. however NEITHER one of us like the north and i don't believe that having an "ivy league" education is significantly different from going to OTHER top 10 medical schools. where did you go to medical school? and what kind of doctor are you now?

perhaps people are laughing at me...BUT i'm sure those of us in a relationship are laughing just as hard..B/C we KNOW it can work. 🙂

 

[SaraL124]

Listen, if you want to shack up with a man you're not committed to giving him full benefits, be my guest. And since you're quoting divorce stats, people who shack up are more likely to end up divorced. Now what?

What are full benefits? Most couples I know, married/engaged or not share housework responsibilities regardless of which partner is in medical school. I know for a fact that living with my partner gives ME equal benefits as it gives him. I am not a maid and I doubt any educated woman who is dating or married to a medical student would be happy with that situation either. Some of the male medical students on this board are just so full of themselves in their role of medical student that they believe that non-medical student women would be willing to live the life you have described. This is not true in my experience and I am living it right now. If my partner ever acted like he expected me to be his housekeeper, cook and "sex kitten" all rolled into one, I'd drop him like a bad habit. People in relationships make compromises. That's how they work and are successful. The OP has said she has no reason not to move with her partner to either city and when she gets there she will pursue her degree. Who's to say she'd rather move to NYC or Boston than Durham or StL anyway??

 

[TommyGunn04]

TommyGunn04, was it brutal doing MS 1 & 2 in one year? I value my sleep and sanity (what's left, at least). Does it affect Step 1 scores? It would be awesome to pick up an MBA or something in the off-year.

Actually, it's very much a misconception that Duke does "two years in one," so allow me to dispel that myth for a moment. First off, the Duke first year is almost an 11 month year, vs about 8 months at most schools. Secondly, Duke covers the same amount of material in those 11 months that other schools cover in their first 11 months, but they have a 2-3 month summer break in the middle, where students are expected to do research, internships, etc. Thirdaly, what's REALLY different about Duke is NOT the pace, which is essentially the same, but rather that we literally don't cover (didactically) most of the subjects that are taught during the majority of the 2nd year in a traditional curriculum. (We also don't do much PBL, which I've always found to be very inefficient and very dependent on the group you end up in.) Most programs cover topics like dermatology, hematology, ophthalmology, radiology, orthopedics, etc. etc. during the second year, but at Duke we don't have lecture-based courses in any of these topics. In fact, these aren't high-yield topics for Step 1 - they're really meant to help prepare you for the wards - so instead of spending a year sitting in class learning about these subjects didactically, we learn about them in a hands-on way, through our clerkship experiences and electives in the 2nd through 4th years. On the other hand, we spend our first 11 months learning the very high-yield Step 1 topics like pathology, pharmacology, microbiology, biochemistry, anatomy, neuroanatomy, cell biology, genetics, microbiology, physiology, etc. etc. So while it may be true that some of our courses are slightly shorter than those of other schools, it's hardly the case that we're doing 2 years of material in 1 year. Rather, we're doing about 1.25 years of material in what amounts to 1.25 years at most schools, since we don't have a 2-3 month summer break.

Regarding board scores, Duke students do VERY well. Our average this past cycle was 233, while the national average is 217. Last I heard, Duke had the 2nd highest average score, after Penn, among schools that are reporting/compiling averages (mostly the ivies I think). In part, I imagine this is due to the fact that we have a year of clinical experience before we take the boards. Although Step 1 is a "basic science" exam, it's very clinical in the way its questions are presented, so the clinical year under our belts makes a difference. Also, we're able to take the test whenever we want, which helps people tailor study time to best suit them. Most schools seem to require students to take Step 1 at a specific time after the 2nd year, often after just a short 3-4 week break. On the contrary, I was able to take 6 weeks off and study full time. Duke students also have a really fantastic reputation among residency program directors, for being very well-prepared clinically for their internship. So in my mind, the Duke curriculum is very much advantageous, and does not impose any additional stress. Unfortunately, even after interviewing at Duke people still leave with the false impression that we do "two years in one," and despite trying to dispel the myth countless times, I continue to hear people assume that Duke is "twice as tough." I hope this message helped improve your understanding of our curriculum.