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mclem222

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Our practice is looking for a new OD out of training. We have 6 docs in our group.
practice is outside philly

Details:

Starting Salary: 65K
Includes: health, 401K after 1 year
one week paid vacation, one week paid educational leave
working hours: Approximately 50 hours a week
bonus: once 195K in collections is reached then the bonus is 30% collections

Buy in to the practice to be considered after three years

If interested, please PM me

Thank you
 
How do you justify that salary when there are openings like this one:
http://localeyesite.com/job_posting...Indeed&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=Indeed

"Primary Care Optometrists
Posted: October 10, 2012
Status:Full-time

Salary/Wage:$120-$125,000 plus bonus/incentive
Benefits:a comprehensive package to be offered

Description:
Full-time position available for a personable and motivated optometrist in Rocky Mount. Our primary care practice continues to grow every year due to location and a commitment to high quality patient care. A minimum base pay of at least $120K plus bonus, and a package including PTO, health/dental, CE stipend, all licenses and insurances will be provided. Practice full-scope medical optometry and get the respect and compensation you deserve."

Is PA or the Philly area that saturated?
 
Private practice is great, and should be the ultimate goal of students, however:

50 Hrs. x 50 Weeks = 2500 Hrs/Year
65000/2500= $26/Hr.

$26 an hour! That is seriously despicable.

As much as we all hate how the profession is going completely commercial, I don't see how paying off a student loan/house/car/starting a family is possible with that salary.
 
If you want to go to Rocky Mount, NC be my guest....

Welcome to the real world...sorry for the wake up call...

One of my friends is looking for someone and will pay them 150-200K in Ransom, Kansas..if you want to live in these sorts of places that is your call.
 
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mclem222 said:
If you want to go to Rocky Mount, NC be my guest....

Welcome to the real world...sorry for the wake up call...

One of my friends is looking for someone and will pay them 150-200K in Ransom, Kansas..if you want to live in these sorts of places that is your call.
Click to expand...

:laugh: Is your practice on Hawaiian beach? If you can't afford to pay someone a decent salary don't bother.
 
50-60 hr a week at $25/hr.

Hey mclem222, I have better offer for you, would you like us to come work for free? and while we are at it maybe cook for you? take out your trash? you know because your practice is somewhere in paradise.

Again if you can't afford to pay don't advertise for a job.
 
We'll see how happy you are when your debt increases by 40% by the time you are in PGY-4 and you are being paid less than minimum wage in your residency. And when you become an attending its not all bells and whistles unless you score high on the Step 1 and match into a competitive specialty. Family medicine for example only gets paid $5-$20 more than Optometry per hour.

If I would consider an alternative career it'd be Engineering or a PhD. because even Dentistry is becoming overvalued. It has an astronomical cost of attendance even at state schools

I guess the lesson here is that jobs in Optometry vary highly in salary depending strongly on location. My theory as to why this is, is because many first and second generation immigrants and other ethnic groups that are known to be studious generally reside in and around larger urban areas. And many students are of these backgrounds so they will take salary cuts to live in areas that are desirable to them and simple supply and demand kicks in and median wages in and around urban areas go down.
 
You guys need to look at the middle of the curve. Sixty five is on the lower end for FT work. 150K is waaaaaaaaaaaaaay on the high end, even for a veteran doc, and just about unheard of for newer grads. You can find anecdotal outliers on both ends of the scale.

With an egregiously high supply, comes low demand, and with low demand, comes low pay and/or undesirable working conditions. If you enter optometry, after being told what it's like, don't complain about low pay after you graduate. You've all been warned numerous times by many, many people.

Look at where the bulk of the landing spots are for new grads. Are they starting new practices? Nope. Are they buying offices? Nope. Those days are over for optometry. New grads are taking whatever employed positions they can find, and that's heavily weighted to the commercial side. We haven't even begun to see pain yet - just wait until all the new schools come online and we're cranking out another 500 or so ODs, in addition to the ones we already mint. It's about to get very, very ugly.

Gold is at about $1700/oz right now. If some guy at CIT invents a "gold machine" tomorrow, and starts cranking out thousands of tons of synthetic gold that can't be distinguished from natural gold, you can't shake your fist at the jeweler who only offers you $200/oz for your investment. The trend is, people will pay what they have to, not what you think is fair.
 
Let me give you all a different way of looking at this offer....

An offer of $65000 is the base salary. There is a production bonus involved.

mclem222, would you please provide the following information regarding this offer.....

1) 50 Hours per week seems like an unusually large amount of time for a new hire. This leads me to think that the clinic is particularly busy. How many patient exams would the doctor hired be expected to have scheduled on a weekly basis?

2) In your practice, what is the average revenue per exam?
 
The gross revenue per patient is roughly $140.
Most docs see about 10 patients per day.
On average most people end up taking home about 100K their first year.

It is interesting how all the students are up in arms...but the practicing optometrists are not.

If you are not interested in joining this practice...guess what?..don't apply...
Do not start criticizing me because the going rate to join an OD optometry practice is lower than you thought. I am under no obligation to give a crap about what loans or expectations you have as a student. I am sure there are plenty of Costcos, Lenscrafters or whatnot that would love to pay you more. If you want to be an essentially glorified glasses pharmacist or go to the middle of nowhere be my guest.

In my practice you have to prove yourself first because I give you all the gold in the chest and frankly there is too much variability in graduating optometry students to pay a high rate from the get go.

FYI I have had 3 PMs already..so it'll be fine for me. Will it be fine for you?
 
mclem222 said:
The gross revenue per patient is roughly $140.
Most docs see about 10 patients per day.
On average most people end up taking home about 100K their first year.

It is interesting how all the students are up in arms...but the practicing optometrists are not.

If you are not interested in joining this practice...guess what?..don't apply...
Do not start criticizing me because the going rate to join an OD optometry practice is lower than you thought. I am under no obligation to give a crap about what loans or expectations you have as a student. I am sure there are plenty of Costcos, Lenscrafters or whatnot that would love to pay you more. If you want to be an essentially glorified glasses pharmacist or go to the middle of nowhere be my guest.

In my practice you have to prove yourself first because I give you all the gold in the chest and frankly there is too much variability in graduating optometry students to pay a high rate from the get go.

FYI I have had 3 PMs already..so it'll be fine for me. Will it be fine for you?
Click to expand...

Some followup questions.....

1) Should a new hire be expected to be booked for 10 patients a day? Is there enough demand for that?

2) If there are only 10 patients per day, 50 hours per week coverage seems unusually high. For a 5 day workweek, that is 10 hours per day. Is there a reason that the time commitment asked for is so high?

3) $140 average revenue seems unusually low for a private practice. What does that include??
 
mclem222 said:
The gross revenue per patient is roughly $140.
Most docs see about 10 patients per day.
On average most people end up taking home about 100K their first year.

I know every situation is different, but I am curious. If you already have 6 docs and your practice is seeing 60 patients a day, why not increase tech support and not add another doc? If you added one tech at 30-40K a year (including benefits) you all could easily increase your output 20% (12 patients a day total) without breaking a sweat. You would not have another voice at parner meetings, clearly your take home would be more, and you would not be working that much harder.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
We have opened a new office and are busting out of the seams

The new hire would be in the old office taking over for one of other docs who is going to take over the new office. They will have 10 patients minimum a day in the beginning but we need the coverage 6 days. We like to give patients the time that is needed and what they expect. If we hired a bunch of techs and tried to make our practice like an ophthalmology office all that would happen is we would lose out to the ophthalmology practices in the area. If a patient expects to be in and out of our office and whizzed through with a tech, they would be better off at an OMD office.

The 140 covers average insurance/eye insurance reimbursement and refraction fee on average etc..

I have had graduating students come out of school and laugh at my offer, go do commercial for a year or two or get burned with some other practice and then come begging for a job or "some part time work atleast". What I offer is a fair deal for outside a major metropolitan area. If someone wants to practice in bucksnort, Texas and get 175K that is their choice but they shouldn't be angry at me at my offer. I will have enough applicants and will fill this position within 1 month.
 
mclem222 said:
We have opened a new office and are busting out of the seams

The new hire would be in the old office taking over for one of other docs who is going to take over the new office. They will have 10 patients minimum a day in the beginning but we need the coverage 6 days. We like to give patients the time that is needed and what they expect. If we hired a bunch of techs and tried to make our practice like an ophthalmology office all that would happen is we would lose out to the ophthalmology practices in the area. If a patient expects to be in and out of our office and whizzed through with a tech, they would be better off at an OMD office.

The 140 covers average insurance/eye insurance reimbursement and refraction fee on average etc..

I have had graduating students come out of school and laugh at my offer, go do commercial for a year or two or get burned with some other practice and then come begging for a job or "some part time work atleast". What I offer is a fair deal for outside a major metropolitan area. If someone wants to practice in bucksnort, Texas and get 175K that is their choice but they shouldn't be angry at me at my offer. I will have enough applicants and will fill this position within 1 month.
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I'm still very confused.

$140 is the average insurance/eye insurance reimbursemnt.

Where is the optical revenue? Contact lens fees? Medical testing? Visual Fields? 😕
 
mclem222 said:
frankly there is too much variability in graduating optometry students to pay a high rate from the get go.
Click to expand...

This is true. Especially PCO grads (no hate) because their average OAT and GPA is very low compared to most schools. Around 300 for all sections compared to SUNY or Berkeley that have averages of 350 and 360 and not to mention somewhat big GPA differences. So I understand your caution.
 
This isn't necessarily a bad deal.

If the averages aren't BS and the office actually needs another doctor then the theoretical bonus would be $46.5K if I'm understanding everything correctly. Bonus incentives are good because it gives the new graduate motivation to bring in new business instead of just collecting a fixed paycheck. The only thing I'd ask is if the incentive is payed per pay period after threshold is met vs. one lump sum at the end of the year. They aren't as nice if it's paid at once since the tax rate is horrendous.

For the buy-in (and keep it mind this is just my opinion) is completely irrelevant with a consideration at 3 years. Doctors like to use this as an incentive but in a majority of cases it never happens as planned, if at all. Be careful when somebody makes such an offer, especially with such a lengthy trial period.
 
CMM83 said:
For the buy-in (and keep it mind this is just my opinion) is completely irrelevant with a consideration at 3 years. Doctors like to use this as an incentive but in a majority of cases it never happens as planned, if at all. Be careful when somebody makes such an offer, especially with such a lengthy trial period.
Click to expand...

👍
 
Thats the way our practice decided to do it. Out of six docs we have four partners. One person has been here one year and the other person is part time and is not interested in partnership.
 
mclem222 said:
It is interesting how all the students are up in arms...but the practicing optometrists are not.
Click to expand...

That's because the students are clueless and the rest of us have been there.
 
KHE said:
I'm still trying to figure out why the average patient encounter is so low? That should not be that low in even an average optometric practice.
Click to expand...

The recruiting doctor said he wants his staff to spend adequate time with patients. That's pretty much 30 - 45 minutes per patient. Doesn't seem bad at all. Could be very fulfilling for a personable optometrist. 60 patients a week divided by 50 hours equates to 1.2 (or 1 1/5) patients an hour. That equates to about fifty minutes per patient.

Seems pretty normal to me, but I only observe.
 
Dysgenics said:
How do you justify that salary when there are openings like this one:
http://localeyesite.com/job_posting...Indeed&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=Indeed

"Primary Care Optometrists
Posted: October 10, 2012
Status:Full-time

Salary/Wage:$120-$125,000 plus bonus/incentive
Benefits:a comprehensive package to be offered

Description:
Full-time position available for a personable and motivated optometrist in Rocky Mount. Our primary care practice continues to grow every year due to location and a commitment to high quality patient care. A minimum base pay of at least $120K plus bonus, and a package including PTO, health/dental, CE stipend, all licenses and insurances will be provided. Practice full-scope medical optometry and get the respect and compensation you deserve."

Is PA or the Philly area that saturated?
Click to expand...

Don't use North Carolina as a reference for what you think you deserve to be paid. A N.C. license is one of the most difficult licenses in the whole country to obtain. The license exam has over a 50% failure rate. If the examiners don't like your communication skills, don't like the way you're dressed or don't think you're very handsome/pretty, they reserve the right to fail you. Seriously. Considering the difficulty and cost to be licensed, N.C. optometrists enjoy some of the highest income averages.
 
CMM83 said:
Don't use North Carolina as a reference for what you think you deserve to be paid. A N.C. license is one of the most difficult licenses in the whole country to obtain. The license exam has over a 50% failure rate. If the examiners don't like your communication skills, don't like the way you're dressed or don't think you're very handsome/pretty, they reserve the right to fail you. Seriously. Considering the difficulty and cost to be licensed, N.C. optometrists enjoy some of the highest income averages.
Click to expand...

OK, I'll admit this may be an outlier. But so is mcclem's job offer. Unless your bonus makes up the remainder to get up to 90k or so. I have heard about NC's strict licensing protocols and this makes it even more appealing to me if I do attain licensure there as the state enjoys a good reputation of qualified optometrists. I am curious however, are there other states that are very difficult to get licensed in? Other than Florida and NC?
 
Poetic Silence said:
The recruiting doctor said he wants his staff to spend adequate time with patients. That's pretty much 30 - 45 minutes per patient. Doesn't seem bad at all. Could be very fulfilling for a personable optometrist. 60 patients a week divided by 50 hours equates to 1.2 (or 1 1/5) patients an hour. That equates to about fifty minutes per patient.

Seems pretty normal to me, but I only observe.
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That would make it worse. If you're spending more time with a patient it should equate to higher billings. No matter how much time you are spending with a patient, $140 as an average ticket is very very low. That would be what would concern me the most about this offer because to me it suggests a few things that I won't throw out there unless mclem222 wants to clarify if that $140 includes medical testing, optical revenue etc. etc.
 
$140 does not include field testing fees and optical. The employee only gets credited what they can bill..they don't get credit for services they refer (field testing, OCT) unless it is their interpretation fee. Also, they do not get credit for optical..if my optician spends 1/2 hour, upsells someone to a $800 frame and lenses, that doesn't go to the OD employee.
 
mclem222 said:
$140 does not include field testing fees and optical. The employee only gets credited what they can bill..they don't get credit for services they refer (field testing, OCT) unless it is their interpretation fee. Also, they do not get credit for optical..if my optician spends 1/2 hour, upsells someone to a $800 frame and lenses, that doesn't go to the OD employee.
Click to expand...

Huh?

Why would an employee need to refer that out? Do you not have a visual field or a camera in the office? Why would the employee not be able to bill for that?

Also, if your doctor talks to the patient about the benefits of high end progressive lenses with A/R and transitions and the optician just has to ring up the order, why is the employed doctor not given credit for that? The tacit implication of your methodology is that the doctor has no effect on what materials the patient purchases.
 
KHE said:
Huh?

Why would an employee need to refer that out? Do you not have a visual field or a camera in the office? Why would the employee not be able to bill for that?

Also, if your doctor talks to the patient about the benefits of high end progressive lenses with A/R and transitions and the optician just has to ring up the order, why is the employed doctor not given credit for that? The tacit implication of your methodology is that the doctor has no effect on what materials the patient purchases.
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Our practice is largely medical and the fees we count for bonus are physician billing fees..period.
 
Dysgenics said:
OK, I'll admit this may be an outlier. But so is mcclem's job offer. Unless your bonus makes up the remainder to get up to 90k or so. I have heard about NC's strict licensing protocols and this makes it even more appealing to me if I do attain licensure there as the state enjoys a good reputation of qualified optometrists. I am curious however, are there other states that are very difficult to get licensed in? Other than Florida and NC?
Click to expand...

For private practice mcclem's offer is not an outlier. Like I said before, by his numbers, your theoretical bonus would be in the mid 40 thousands plus the base salary. Don't just focus on salary. Will you be guaranteed 10 patients a day at the claimed average of $140? I doubt it. I bet that's what the senior partners average. Still, it gives you some motivation to build the business and have some control over your income.

I don't really understand how the special testing works though. The way I'm reading, the new doctor would request OCT, VF, whatever and another doctor in the practice would interpret and ultimately collect the percentage of those fees? If this is the case, that's BS. I would never agree to such an arrangement in which those types of billings were not part of a bonus incentive. I could live without materials if the practice is as medically oriented as claimed, but the aforementioned tests are still "physician billing fees".

Lastly, whenever somebody offers you buy-in or partnership, ask yourself and the seller what you're actually buying. Is it a 1/6 share of an OCT, an exam lane and 5000 charts? Will those patients actually become yours? Do you get ownership of the building? What is the condition of the equipment? There's so many factors to consider and I'll tell you from first-hand experience, lots of older doctors are going to try and take advantage of you. They place more value than what it's actually worth and think they're more clever than you. I know many who fell for it. Don't let that be you. I'm not suggesting mcclem isn't honorable, just be careful and ask the right questions before making such a big decision.
 
Yes so interpretation fees are counted because the OD is doing that. Anything the OD does is counted. Anything not done...facility fee, glasses, the profit on the contact lens box sold is not counted.
 
mclem222 said:
Yes so interpretation fees are counted because the OD is doing that. Anything the OD does is counted. Anything not done...facility fee, glasses, the profit on the contact lens box sold is not counted.
Click to expand...

Isn't the OD's Rx needed for your opticians to sell glasses and contact lenses? There is no incentive for your associate to recommend extra pairs of glasses and/or specialty contact lenses.
 
yes but our practice isn't based on trying to sell tons of different glasses to people. We give a patient an Rx and they can get the glasses from our optical or somewhere else.
 
mclem222 said:
yes but our practice isn't based on trying to sell tons of different glasses to people. We give a patient an Rx and they can get the glasses from our optical or somewhere else.
Click to expand...

Sure let your Rx's walk out the door.

Please stop feeding this troll....
 
I apologize if our practice isn't like yours. we are a largely medical OD practice...Our money is not in pushing glasses like a two bit shopkeeper......just because someone says things you don't like..it doesn't make them a troll....
 
mclem222 said:
I apologize if our practice isn't like yours. we are a largely medical OD practice...Our money is not in pushing glasses like a two bit shopkeeper......just because someone says things you don't like..it doesn't make them a troll....
Click to expand...

I don't see what's not to like here. A nice salary, a medical setting that doesn't require the stress of pushing glasses and adequate time with patients. This is the kind of optometry I'd love to see in the future.

I must be missing something as a pre med because this would seem like a dream job for a newbie optometrist.
 
Poetic Silence said:
I don't see what's not to like here. A nice salary, a medical setting that doesn't require the stress of pushing glasses and adequate time with patients. This is the kind of optometry I'd love to see in the future.

I must be missing something as a pre med because this would seem like a dream job for a newbie optometrist.
Click to expand...

For me, the issue is that he is essentially paying his employees 30% of what they bring in, which is fine.

But the things that he's including in that 30% are far too little. He's excluding material sales and a large part of any additional medial testing that the employed doctor does.

Essentially, his employees are being paid 30% of exam revenue only. To me, that's not good. The time commitment required to generate that salary is too large. If you're seeing only 10 patients a day or 50 per week, you should not need to be working 50 hours a week. That averages out to an hour per exam which is far too much.

People can say "well it's great that a doctor takes a lot of time with their patients" but 97% of patients do not want an hour long exam. The only ones that do are little old ladies with nothing better to do than get doted on by a young eye doctor.

So either the exams are grossly inefficient or the clinic is not busy enough and the doctor will be sitting around for 20-30 minutes out of every hour.

It's not a horrible job offer and it's probably not bad for someone who is right out of school but any student with even an ounce of motivation or drive is going to get bored really really quickly.
 
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