Job outlook

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AA|FCB|DOC

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Hi all,

I was just looking to get some insight on job outlook. Wanted to see what those who are in the field are experiencing. I do have interests in radiology, even though I the beginning my medical school career. I have repeatedly been told that the job market for radiology is bad and declining, and that getting a job in a city like San Diego (hometown where I want to work after residency) as a diagnostic radiologist without a fellowship is near impossible. How do you guys feel about this statement? There is a chance I would do a fellowship, but in the case that something like that doesn't interest me, would I essentially be forced to look outside big cities like SD for a job? Any input is appreciated.
 
Well, first of all, fellowship is just short of mandatory in radiology nowadays. Job opportunities exist for those who do not complete a fellowship but that is the exception, and certainly not the case for a city like San Diego. Expect six years of postgraduate training. If you want to wind up in a highly desirable area like SD, do everything in your power to train there.

The job market is slowly improving, but improving from its previous rock bottom position isn't saying a ton. It certainly is nowhere near as robust as many other specialties where you can essentially choose to which city you'd like to move. If your primary goal is to end up in SD there are many other specialties that would get you to that goal in a much shorter training period and with much more ease.

That being said my opinion is that you should choose your specialty based on your personal interests. All specialties turn into a job sooner or later. Radiology itself is a great job and demand for imaging continues apace, despite bean counter desires to the contrary.
 
Jobs are out there but in less than desirable areas; the pay also is not commensurate with the level of training required of radiologists.

I'd be very careful of where you decide to apply though; going to community programs nowadays is a sure way to find yourself jobless in 5 yrs.
 
Thank you for your insight. So naturally my next question would be, how difficult is it to land those residency and fellowship spots in San Diego or California in general? I am working on building some connections at UCSD since I went to undergrad there. I personally would not mind a length of training as long as it's in that area where I can also build further connections for a job post fellowship.
 
radsswtich said:
Jobs are out there but in less than desirable areas; the pay also is not commensurate with the level of training required of radiologists.

I'd be very careful of where you decide to apply though; going to community programs nowadays is a sure way to find yourself jobless in 5 yrs.
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Sorry, just to get further clarification, what do you mean by community programs? Like residencies at non-academic institutions?
 
AA|FCB|DOC said:
Sorry, just to get further clarification, what do you mean by community programs? Like residencies at non-academic institutions?
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Exactly

Just because a hospital has a radiology department doesnt mean it qualifies for accreditation for residency. Sometimes i think these community places have residents just for the work force and needed overnight coverages.; not to mention the soon upcoming merger of DO radiology residencies......
 
There are only 14 AOA (DO) radiology programs and probably a third of them will not go through with the merger. Shouldn't really cause any trouble for radiology as a whole. Way more ACGME community programs out there.
 
radsswtich said:
Exactly

Just because a hospital has a radiology department doesnt mean it qualifies for accreditation for residency. Sometimes i think these community places have residents just for the work force and needed overnight coverages.; not to mention the soon upcoming merger of DO radiology residencies......
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Cubsfan10 said:
There are only 14 AOA (DO) radiology programs and probably a third of them will not go through with the merger. Shouldn't really cause any trouble for radiology as a whole. Way more ACGME community programs out there.
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I have not heard about this merger yet. Could you explain it a bit more? Is it that there are new DO radiology residences being added?
 
All AOA residencies must merge with the ACGME and fall under the ACGME banner by 2020 for a unified accreditation system.
 
Haha great I'll be done with medical school in 2019 so I assume I will have to deal with D.O's competing with me too for competitive residencies
 
I've never see hard data on the radiology job market, does it exists?

I've heard of rumblings of residents not being happy with job offers, but at least no one from my program seems to go unemployed. Does anyone have numbers to put this into context?
 
Radiologyreviews2015 said:
I've never see hard data on the radiology job market, does it exists?

I've heard of rumblings of residents not being happy with job offers, but at least no one from my program seems to go unemployed. Does anyone have numbers to put this into context?
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Yes I was looking for those too. Really interested to see them, specially if it is broken down by city. Are those from your department who are getting hired all on fellowships or just DR? Are they getting hired in bigger coyotes by any chance?
 
They're all hired after fellowship. I've heard of a few securing jobs prior to starting fellowship, but everyone at my home program goes on to fellowship.

I doubt they're is city wide data as private practices don't have to disclose anything. It would be nice to just learn more anecdotally, my knowledge of the radiology job market is about n=3 right now.
 
AA|FCB|DOC said:
Hi all,

I was just looking to get some insight on job outlook. Wanted to see what those who are in the field are experiencing. I do have interests in radiology, even though I the beginning my medical school career. I have repeatedly been told that the job market for radiology is bad and declining, and that getting a job in a city like San Diego (hometown where I want to work after residency) as a diagnostic radiologist without a fellowship is near impossible. How do you guys feel about this statement? There is a chance I would do a fellowship, but in the case that something like that doesn't interest me, would I essentially be forced to look outside big cities like SD for a job? Any input is appreciated.
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You can EVENTUALLY find a job in SD but takes time and effort. It needs patience and you may end up working for a year or two in a different location.

Since even one year of fellowship seems a VERY BIG DEAL to you, I recommend you to go into another field which has better job market.
 
shark2000 said:
You can EVENTUALLY find a job in SD but takes time and effort. It needs patience and you may end up working for a year or two in a different location.

Since even one year of fellowship seems a VERY BIG DEAL to you, I recommend you to go into another field which has better job market.
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Actually the one year of fellowship is not a big deal to me at all if I can figure out which one of them really interests me, and if I can have it in California. But yea at this point it's too early to say without really experiencing rotations. Just trying to keep an eye on the fields I have any remote interest in so I am well-informed when making a decision.
 
AA|FCB|DOC said:
Actually the one year of fellowship is not a big deal to me at all if I can figure out which one of them really interests me, and if I can have it in California. But yea at this point it's too early to say without really experiencing rotations. Just trying to keep an eye on the fields I have any remote interest in so I am well-informed when making a decision.
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Prior to starting med school and through the first year and a half, I shared a similar mindset in that I strongly wanted to avoid fellowship and the additional year or years. The 3 fields I was targeting all had 5+ year residencies and I had no desire to sub-specialize. Now half way through M3 and having narrowed my interests down to 2 fields with 5-year residencies, I'm more than willing to do a fellowship to 1. solidify my training >>> 2. secure the practice setting & location I desire = 3. pursue a sub-specialty if an interest develops. N=1 but my point is that once you have a few years of school down and realize how quickly the time passes, the end result of your desired career should make the means to get to it seemingly less of a burden and the decision to do so becomes easier.
 
pd1112 said:
Prior to starting med school and through the first year and a half, I shared a similar mindset in that I strongly wanted to avoid fellowship and the additional year or years. The 3 fields I was targeting all had 5+ year residencies and I had no desire to sub-specialize. Now half way through M3 and having narrowed my interests down to 2 fields with 5-year residencies, I'm more than willing to do a fellowship to 1. solidify my training >>> 2. secure the practice setting & location I desire = 3. pursue a sub-specialty if an interest develops. N=1 but my point is that once you have a few years of school down and realize how quickly the time passes, the end result of your desired career should make the means to get to it seemingly less of a burden and the decision to do so becomes easier.
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Yea I can definitely see that being the case. Specially when in this case it's only a one year fellowship. I guess my biggest concern is being able to head back home for family reasons during the residency and hopefully fellowship. If I can secure a spot in San Diego or at least somewhere in CA, I really do not have too big of an issue with spending more time. What are the other specialties you have in mind?
 
AA|FCB|DOC said:
Yea I can definitely see that being the case. Specially when in this case it's only a one year fellowship. I guess my biggest concern is being able to head back home for family reasons during the residency and hopefully fellowship. If I can secure a spot in San Diego or at least somewhere in CA, I really do not have too big of an issue with spending more time. What are the other specialties you have in mind?
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A couple surgical fields, which I'm leaning towards, but rads was my original interest in high school. I love the field, but I'm not 100% convinced I'll have the same feelings when it becomes "work" over 30 years, you know? I could say that about the other two as well though, so now I'm trying to weigh the other aspects - personalities of peers, options for practice settings/locations, sustainability, etc. It starts to get overwhelming trying to figure it out, which goes back to the reason I said that once I do, adding another year or years it the least of my concerns as long as it gets me there.
 
Job market woes are way overstated on the Internet. Yea, A practice in Beverly Hills or Manhattan may be hard to land, but this is true of most specialties. people really exaggerate how bad it is out there.
 
cowme said:
Job market woes are way overstated on the Internet. Yea, A practice in Beverly Hills or Manhattan may be hard to land, but this is true of most specialties. people really exaggerate how bad it is out there.
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Thanks for the input. Yea glad to hear that maybe some are overexaggerating. Just trying to possibly be a practicing radiologist in San Diego. I feel like with a fellowship it can't be that entirely difficult to find a job there. And I know people also complain a lot about cuts. im sure salaries may have decreased, but not sure if it's as bad some people make it sound. If I had to guess, I think most radiologists are still going to have a 200k+ salary. And after all if you enjoy it I don't think it will be the end of the world.
 
cowme said:
Job market woes are way overstated on the Internet. Yea, A practice in Beverly Hills or Manhattan may be hard to land, but this is true of most specialties. people really exaggerate how bad it is out there.
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Agree. I want to stay in the Midwest and either rural or smaller city with <100k population. So my primary dilemma is small group vs health system employed vs hospital employed, but that's a whole separate issue from OP's.
 
AA|FCB|DOC said:
Thanks for the input. Yea glad to hear that maybe some are overexaggerating. Just trying to possibly be a practicing radiologist in San Diego. I feel like with a fellowship it can't be that entirely difficult to find a job there. And I know people also complain a lot about cuts. im sure salaries may have decreased, but not sure if it's as bad some people make it sound. If I had to guess, I think most radiologists are still going to have a 200k+ salary. And after all if you enjoy it I don't think it will be the end of the world.
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I think a lot of the doom and gloom you hear about rad's outlook (and many other fields) comes from either: 1. Attendings who started their careers with shorter hours and better pay, or 2. Others who developed their opinions from hearing those attendings. Not a knock on the experienced; it's a valid opinion to have when you're accustomed to something better. But for those of us still in school/training who won't ever have that experience, it's imperative to look at the field for what it is today and not give a second thought to <50hr weeks and >$500k/yr income.
 
pd1112 said:
I think a lot of the doom and gloom you hear about rad's outlook (and many other fields) comes from either: 1. Attendings who started their careers with shorter hours and better pay, or 2. Others who developed their opinions from hearing those attendings. Not a knock on the experienced; it's a valid opinion to have when you're accustomed to something better. But for those of us still in school/training who won't ever have that experience, it's imperative to look at the field for what it is today and not give a second thought to <50hr weeks and >$500k/yr income.
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Right you are. As is the way with SDN, the majority of people also seem to be only interested in living/working in the big cities on the East/West Coasts. If you end up in a smaller city, you can still make excellent money.
 
As a resident in a very popular coastal city, I can tell you that the job market is very tight here. However the job market in the middle of the country and the southern parts are fine. That's good for me because I have no desire to work in a coastal city. The taxes are ridiculous and so is the malpractice risk. There is much more fiscal and economic freedom in the southern states. I encourage trainees to check out states like Texas, Tennessee, South Carolina, Arizona, Virginia and the like. It's not as bad as you guys all make it to be.
 
Radiologyreviews2015 said:
As a resident in a very popular coastal city, I can tell you that the job market is very tight here. However the job market in the middle of the country and the southern parts are fine. That's good for me because I have no desire to work in a coastal city. The taxes are ridiculous and so is the malpractice risk. There is much more fiscal and economic freedom in the southern states. I encourage trainees to check out states like Texas, Tennessee, South Carolina, Arizona, Virginia and the like. It's not as bad as you guys all make it to be.
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Is it difficult to get your foot in the door into these midwest/southern markets if your residency is in another part of the country? Basically, is your resident alumni network a important consideration?
 
It is at a disadvantage but it's not as bad as the other way around. Think about it this way, more people doing residency in the midwest and south try to crack into California than people from California trying to crack into those states.
 
Sigh.

Doom and gloom.

I never understood why people try to torpedo this great specialty. I love radiology and I'll be honest I know several fellows, including me, who got jobs like the first month starting fellowships. Heck, not to boast, but I had 5 offers.

Point is market saturation is overstated. Big cities are tough on MANY specialties. True if you are derm then there is a line of patients waiting, but the advantage of derm etc comes from having ability to open a shack right outta fellowship. If you are a derm employee then might as well be a Radiologist (financially speaking). You'll probably work harder but will make more (probably).

Here is a simple guide:
Big cities --> start networking in residency to land job offers. It IS all about networking (plus I mean you must be atleast competent)
Smaller cities --> again network but there are many jobs in mid towns.
Your choice of city --> join local chapters and be the chief resident. You wouldn't believe how advantageous it may be to be the chief and get introduced in circles from attending physicians if you are not a d*ck.

Anyways, will reserve a longer post for later.
 
The people trying to torpedo the specialty are the ones who went into it purely for the money and are no longer seeing $700,000 salaries.

If you went into Radiology because you loved the field, you are still happy and making good money (much better than most physicians).

If you're a med student, I think it's a good time to buy... assuming you enjoy the work for the right reasons.


InternationlDoc said:
Sigh.

Doom and gloom.

I never understood why people try to torpedo this great specialty. I love radiology and I'll be honest I know several fellows, including me, who got jobs like the first month starting fellowships. Heck, not to boast, but I had 5 offers.

Point is market saturation is overstated. Big cities are tough on MANY specialties. True if you are derm then there is a line of patients waiting, but the advantage of derm etc comes from having ability to open a shack right outta fellowship. If you are a derm employee then might as well be a Radiologist (financially speaking). You'll probably work harder but will make more (probably).

Here is a simple guide:
Big cities --> start networking in residency to land job offers. It IS all about networking (plus I mean you must be atleast competent)
Smaller cities --> again network but there are many jobs in mid towns.
Your choice of city --> join local chapters and be the chief resident. You wouldn't believe how advantageous it may be to be the chief and get introduced in circles from attending physicians if you are not a d*ck.

Anyways, will reserve a longer post for later.
Click to expand...
 
Fab5Hill33 said:
The people trying to torpedo the specialty are the ones who went into it purely for the money and are no longer seeing $700,000 salaries.

If you went into Radiology because you loved the field, you are still happy and making good money (much better than most physicians).

If you're a med student, I think it's a good time to buy... assuming you enjoy the work for the right reasons.
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which is also funny because those same rads who were working through golden era and making 700k with working 40 hours a week and taking 8 weeks vacation are the same ones who pissed away all their money and are now working into their late 60s and picking up more work instead of hiring new rads, or just retiring and being replaced by new rads. their indiscretions are affecting the job market for all the up and coming rads.
 
Once they look at their 401k after today, they will think twice about retiring in 2016.
 
I think the real truth is somewhere between "the market is horrible" to "the market is recovering". I interviewed at an upper tier program where a fellow couldn't find a position and ended up doing a second fellowship. We don't the know the personal circumstance of the person who got 5 job offers. I am certainly not using that as a job-market metric. That said, I am happy to be going to into radiology since there is no other field of medicine I would rather pursue. If I can't get an academic job as a radiologist, I will go look for an R & D position somewhere.
 
So posting using Radiologreviews2015 is the new fad? What is this - like a double authentication style applied to online anonymity?

Anyways

I will reiterate: Market changes, and it can change fairly rapidly. To be frank while there is an overall market which has been depressed when compared to the roaring early 2000's, if you are in a geography, you can network and get a job. Your dedication and good references will carry you to the job you want. As in life, you can't have EVERYTHING, but if you are reasonable then you can absolutely land a great job.

And yes my circumstance may be different but they are not unique. Heck, to be honest I am literally 2-3 years away from even trying going solo (need capital). If you are doing breast or IR, you can open your clinic and offer services. What is not to like?
 
I would question the categorization of a program as "upper tier" if their fellow can't get a job. I work in academics at a mid-tier academic institution in a big city (top 10 population-wise) and my fellows have NO problem getting jobs. It may simply be that that fellow is so dead set on living in NYC or SF that they won't compromise on moving elsewhere. That's not a reflection of the market, that's just being picky in my humble opinion.


Radiologyreviews2015 said:
I think the real truth is somewhere between "the market is horrible" to "the market is recovering". I interviewed at an upper tier program where a fellow couldn't find a position and ended up doing a second fellowship. We don't the know the personal circumstance of the person who got 5 job offers. I am certainly not using that as a job-market metric. That said, I am happy to be going to into radiology since there is no other field of medicine I would rather pursue. If I can't get an academic job as a radiologist, I will go look for an R & D position somewhere.
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I agree. People seem to still have problems finding jobs when they only look at LA/NYC/DC/SF/SD. Outside of that...it's doable.
 
The January JACR had an article discussing the desirability of candidates in practice hiring. With the exception of academics, all other practice types preferred subspecialty radiologists with general radiology skills. Something to keep in mind while training in an academics institution surrounded by single subspecialty radiologists.

Flexibility is key.
 
Fab5Hill33 said:
I would question the categorization of a program as "upper tier" if their fellow can't get a job. I work in academics at a mid-tier academic institution in a big city (top 10 population-wise) and my fellows have NO problem getting jobs. It may simply be that that fellow is so dead set on living in NYC or SF that they won't compromise on moving elsewhere. That's not a reflection of the market, that's just being picky in my humble opinion.
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Agree. Or the fellow may have a personality issue or there may be something wrong that you are not aware of.
 
Yea I'm personally hoping to get a residency/fellowship in or around San Diego, and hopefully network my way into a job at some point. I'm sure it's harder than many other places, but I don't think I would end up as an unemployed physician either (at least I hope not)
 
DrBowtie said:
The January JACR had an article discussing the desirability of candidates in practice hiring. With the exception of academics, all other practice types preferred subspecialty radiologists with general radiology skills. Something to keep in mind while training in an academics institution surrounded by single subspecialty radiologists.

Flexibility is key.
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Does this mean looking into the broader fellowships - MRI, for instance?

I know the traditional train of thought was to super subspecialize, but if what you're saying is true, it might be different now.
 
tco said:
Does this mean looking into the broader fellowships - MRI, for instance?

I know the traditional train of thought was to super subspecialize, but if what you're saying is true, it might be different now.
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No.

"Being trained at an academic institution surrounded by single subspecialty radiologists" as mentioned above, does not mean that you won't get a comprehensive training in all aspects of radiology and you won't be a good general radiologist.

Most private practice jobs have a lot of general radiology but also a fair amount of subspecialty work.

A lot of BS is going around (and it has been the case in the last 10-15 years) that academic departments don't prepare their trainees for private practice. This is a total BS. It is the JUSTIFICATION by the people who could not make it to top programs.

These days that the job market is tight, going to a big name program gives you a lot of leverage when it comes to getting a job. Don't listen to the nonsense that people say. Going to MGH versus a small community program in Boston opens a lot of doors for you when it comes to job search. A year of fellowship is not going to replace the big advantage of doing residency in a big institution. The same for going to UCLA versus a small community program in LA.
 
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shark2000 said:
No.

"Being trained at an academics institution surrounded by single subspecialty radiologists" as mentioned above, does not mean that you won't get a comprehensive training in all aspects of radiology and you won't be a good general radiologists.

Most private practice jobs have a lot of general radiology but also a fair amount of subspecialty training.

A lot of BS is going around (and it has been the case in the lat 10-15 years) that academic departments don't prepare their trainees for private practice. This is a total BS. It is the JUSTIFICATION by the people who could not make it to top programs.

These days that the job market is tight, going to a big name program gives you a lot of leverage when it comes to getting a job. Don't listen to the nonsense that people say. Going to MGH versus a small community program in Boston opens a lot of doors for you when it comes to job search. A year of fellowship is not going to replace the big advantage of doing residency in a big institution. The same for going to UCLA versus a small community program in LA.
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Right. What I meant was take what the guy who has only been reading a single modality or specialty says about practicing and fellowship with the appropriate context before you sign up for the two year neuro fellowship if you want a more general PP job.
 
tco said:
Does this mean looking into the broader fellowships - MRI, for instance?

I know the traditional train of thought was to super subspecialize, but if what you're saying is true, it might be different now.
Click to expand...
No. Do a subspecialty but don't have a one track mind in residency and neglect general radiology training.
 
DrBowtie said:
Right. What I meant was take what the guy who has only been reading a single modality or specialty says about practicing and fellowship with the appropriate context before you sign up for the two year neuro fellowship if you want a more general PP job.
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Two year neuro fellowship is good only if someone wants to join academics or very few subspecialized mega-groups in the country.
 
2 years is a long time to commit to fellowship after a 5 year residency. It's time to go out and get a job.
 
So...after talking to residents/fellows from my state from a few programs, they all got some really good offers. It is in the Midwest but within a few hours of several major cities and top places to live. Its not NY, LA, or whatever nonsense people think they want to live in (family obligations aside) but I am really surprised about the doom and gloom on here. Some young attendings even have it pretty good. I know a new attending who isn't stuck doing all the procedures and mammo and actually spends a lot of his day doing work from his fellowship specialty. I don't know about the direction this specialty is going but this definitely changed my tune from switching from this specialty. Money for me is not the main issue but low compensation for the workload and malpractice risk is, which seems to not be as bad as certain people claim.

Thanks to shark also for keeping me interested enough to contact people and network a little and actually get specifics rather than that the specialty is magically dying and being replaced by Google image search.
 
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