Rads to Surgery?

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gtx780ti

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Hello everyone, I also posted something over on the surgery forum... but I wanted to share my thought process and hear what the more experienced amongst you have to say.

So when I applied to rads I was between surgery and rads. I really like both of them, and I have to say I probably like them on an even level. However when I applied, admittedly I wasn't considering job market. I just assumed the rads job market was at least... you know, doing O.K. Well now that I've come to this forum I feel like I've trapped myself into a dead-end job where I'm going to end up working near surgery hours with much less job satisfaction. Almost to the last man, people are complaining on these forums about how horrible radiology is now... this includes not only the job market but also the actual daily work.

I guess my question is... (please omit your negative biases toward surgery if you have them) all things being equal, if my desire for surgery is about equal to my desire to do radiology, would you guys recommend jumping ship? Given everything I'm reading on here, I feel like I've made a life ruining decision. I also don't think this is an over-statement. I dedicated thousands of hours and hundreds of thousands of dollars to obtain this endpoint. I don't want the result to be a crappy nighthawk job at the end of the road.
 
gtx780ti said:
Hello everyone, I also posted something over on the surgery forum... but I wanted to share my thought process and hear what the more experienced amongst you have to say.

So when I applied to rads I was between surgery and rads. I really like both of them, and I have to say I probably like them on an even level. However when I applied, admittedly I wasn't considering job market. I just assumed the rads job market was at least... you know, doing O.K. Well now that I've come to this forum I feel like I've trapped myself into a dead-end job where I'm going to end up working near surgery hours with much less job satisfaction. Almost to the last man, people are complaining on these forums about how horrible radiology is now... this includes not only the job market but also the actual daily work.

I guess my question is... (please omit your negative biases toward surgery if you have them) all things being equal, if my desire for surgery is about equal to my desire to do radiology, would you guys recommend jumping ship? Given everything I'm reading on here, I feel like I've made a life ruining decision. I also don't think this is an over-statement. I dedicated thousands of hours and hundreds of thousands of dollars to obtain this endpoint. I don't want the result to be a crappy nighthawk job at the end of the road.
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Nobody knows what works better for you.

You have to first describe the meaning of "desire for surgery" and "desire for radiology" to yourself. I'd rather do 12 hours of radiology work versus 6 hours of surgery (or medicine) work. The opposite may be true for many other people. Many surgeons prefer spending 6 hours in OR to reading 6 hours of CTs or CXRs.

Surgery and radiology are two very different fields. Both need their own personalities. Doing 30 years of OR is not for everyone. THESE DAYS the practice of radiology is not for everyone. It is constant mental work. Comparing surgery and radiology is like comparing art with physics. Now I ask you. Do you think I will like art more or physics more?
 
Anyway, the job market for general surgery is better than radiology. The job market for radiology is bad, though not as bad as what people say. The job market for many surgical subspecialties is tight (as tight or worse than radiology) since their market is controlled by a few surgeons in each area. Pick your poison.
 
I was going to blow this off as a troll post, but I see you asked this same question without the preface about the terrible radiology job market back last June on the surgery forums. So, what the hell, I'll bite.

Radiology and surgery are radically different specialties, except for IR which can be essentially surgery light depending on how it is practices. I did a prelim year in general surgery, and I can tell you from experience, the day-to-day life of the two fields is dramatically different.

That being said, for my personality, the lifestyle of a radiologist is FAR preferable to that of a surgeon. Yes, the hours of a radiologist are significantly worst than they used to be 10 or 20 years ago, but you are still looking at working 50-60 hours a week with a fair amount of vacation time. When you go home, you study a fair bit during residency, but for the most part your time is your own.

Surgeons, on the other hand, have patients admitted to them. They have a funny way of extending work hours a very long time.

However, I understand lots of people don't want to spend all day sitting in front of a computer in a dark room solving computer puzzles and would find that miserable. For my personality, though, I much prefer it to standing up all day sewing under a fluorescent light. Meh, to each their own though.

I wouldn't let the job market scare you away on its own though. It kind of sucks all over right now for all kinds of medical specialties. My friends in derm and cards are also struggling to find decent positions. It sucks a little more for radiology because the powers that be trained too many radiologists after a shortage 5-10 years ago, but not really that much more.

The job market for general surgeons I think is okay because nobody really wants to do the work. It is low paid compared to other surgical specialties with atrocious hours. I think the job market in the rest of surgery kind of sucks too though. You might want to ask around some before making big decisions based on these temporary trends.

So comes down to: do you want to stand up and sew or sit down and solve computer puzzles in the dark? You will work about equally hard in terms of workload while you are in house for both in my experience (assuming private practice volumes in radiology), but your hours will be much better in radiology.
 
Both good posts. I found a partnership tract job within 2 months, 2 hrs from my home town, doing mostly work in my subspecialty. Granted, I'm in the midwest. So far, about half my residency class have "good" jobs. But 1/4 of them are doing 2 yr neuro fellowships and aren't looking yet. The market is not great, but it's not as bad as people make it out to be. It is impossible to tell how it will be in the future. When I matched into radiology, radiology was at its height. Things have changed since then and will change for you. Diagnostic imaging is the future of medicine... hopefully radiologist will remain central in that role.

I think the posts above put it well- are you ok with doing work at a computer desk for the majority of the day? You can always decrease this time by doing procedures. Most areas of radiology have some procedures. The surgeons and clinicians I know who like their job would hate sitting at a desk. If I had to stand in the OR and sew for 12 hrs per day I'd shoot myself. Similarly I hated rounding and hated outpatient medicine, dealing with 4+ patients per hour on that kind of time crunch day in/day out. Id rather be ploughing through imaging studies than patients.

Its important that you think it over well before switching because the lifestyles and work environments of rads and surgery are completely different. Don't switch based solely on the job market. It's not that bad. If I could go back and pick another specialty, it would not be surgery in a million years. But again, I would hate that kind of work and have too many other interests in life to be tied down to the OR.
 
First let me start by saying this is in no way a troll post. I believe if you look through my post history this is a topic I've had some concern about ever since matching into rads last year.

Second, I am primarily going into DR with the eventual hope of landing an IR spot. I say "hope" because I realize the IR fellowship is becoming intensely competitive... and I am in no way anything beyond an average candidate at this point. Hopefully I will be above average by time fellowship applications come around, although this is tangential to the point of the original post.

Third, I wholly understand that asking you whether I will like surgery or radiology more is an absurd question. I am aware only I can answer this. My intention of the post was to ask the other members who are knowledgeable about radiology and it's future (in so much as someone can be knowledgeable about the future), if it is insane to be going into radiology now? I think this is a particularly valid question because if you were a strong enough candidate to match into radiology, typically you will have options in the NRMP match game.

Truly, reading these forums has demoralized me. I am wrought with doubt about my future now... I was so excited when I matched and ever since then (which is also when I started coming onto this forum) I have been depressed about my choice to go into radiology. Again, almost entirely due to what I am reading on the forums. I also see the evidence of what is being said in at the program where I am now... It's a small community hospital, maybe 350 beds. 2 years before I came, apparently there were 7 or radiologists working here (I don't know the exact number.) Today there is one radiologist who covers days, and 1 IR guy. No radiologists at night, in spite of a fairly busy ED. The jobs have all sent over to some telerads company.

I guess I'm just looking for some sort of validation which doesn't exist... I pretty much know what people are going to say in response to my posts. I am just looking to vent a little I suppose. Feeling scared about the decision you made for the rest of your life, especially when you have/HAD other options is a pretty sickening feeling.
 
gtx780ti said:
First let me start by saying this is in no way a troll post. I believe if you look through my post history this is a topic I've had some concern about ever since matching into rads last year.

Second, I am primarily going into DR with the eventual hope of landing an IR spot. I say "hope" because I realize the IR fellowship is becoming intensely competitive... and I am in no way anything beyond an average candidate at this point. Hopefully I will be above average by time fellowship applications come around, although this is tangential to the point of the original post.

Third, I wholly understand that asking you whether I will like surgery or radiology more is an absurd question. I am aware only I can answer this. My intention of the post was to ask the other members who are knowledgeable about radiology and it's future (in so much as someone can be knowledgeable about the future), if it is insane to be going into radiology now? I think this is a particularly valid question because if you were a strong enough candidate to match into radiology, typically you will have options in the NRMP match game.

Truly, reading these forums has demoralized me. I am wrought with doubt about my future now... I was so excited when I matched and ever since then (which is also when I started coming onto this forum) I have been depressed about my choice to go into radiology. Again, almost entirely due to what I am reading on the forums. I also see the evidence of what is being said in at the program where I am now... It's a small community hospital, maybe 350 beds. 2 years before I came, apparently there were 7 or radiologists working here (I don't know the exact number.) Today there is one radiologist who covers days, and 1 IR guy. No radiologists at night, in spite of a fairly busy ED. The jobs have all sent over to some telerads company.

I guess I'm just looking for some sort of validation which doesn't exist... I pretty much know what people are going to say in response to my posts. I am just looking to vent a little I suppose. Feeling scared about the decision you made for the rest of your life, especially when you have/HAD other options is a pretty sickening feeling.
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No matter what fellowship you chose, you will be able to find a job close to your desirable location. Even if not right after the fellowship, 1-2 years into practice you will find something. You will have a comfortable life. You will make more than most doctors. However, there will always be some surgeons who will have more job options than you and will make more than you, but with the cost of crappy life style. An average radiologist is much happier than an average surgeon.

Having said that, nothing is a guarantee in life. You may chose OB now and its job market may become extremely tight in 10 years. Nobody knows and nobody can guarantee.

350 bed hospital definitely has much more business than what you describe. Even if all the DR goes to telerad, it needs at least 2 IR people on site. The experience with your internship program is very atypical.
 
shark2000 said:
No matter what fellowship you chose, you will be able to find a job close to your desirable location. Even if not right after the fellowship, 1-2 years into practice you will find something. You will have a comfortable life. You will make more than most doctors. However, there will always be some surgeons who will have more job options than you and will make more than you, but with the cost of crappy life style. An average radiologist is much happier than an average surgeon.

Having said that, nothing is a guarantee in life. You may chose OB now and its job market may become extremely tight in 10 years. Nobody knows and nobody can guarantee.

350 bed hospital definitely has much more business than what you describe. Even if all the DR goes to telerad, it needs at least 2 IR people on site. The experience with your internship program is very atypical.
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Well, if your last post to me was indeed your last post, happy 1000th post.

You'll be glad to know that with that thousandth post you brought at least some solace to my decision.

As to the 350 bed hospital needing X number of IR guys... you're right. The hospital in fact has 350 beds however, several of the wings are closed and there is a large rehab hospital department here which rarely needs IR service. All-in-all there are probably less than 200 beds... I guess I was just quoting the "as-advertised on the hospital website" number.
 
gtx780ti said:
First let me start by saying this is in no way a troll post. I believe if you look through my post history this is a topic I've had some concern about ever since matching into rads last year.

Second, I am primarily going into DR with the eventual hope of landing an IR spot. I say "hope" because I realize the IR fellowship is becoming intensely competitive... and I am in no way anything beyond an average candidate at this point. Hopefully I will be above average by time fellowship applications come around, although this is tangential to the point of the original post.

Third, I wholly understand that asking you whether I will like surgery or radiology more is an absurd question. I am aware only I can answer this. My intention of the post was to ask the other members who are knowledgeable about radiology and it's future (in so much as someone can be knowledgeable about the future), if it is insane to be going into radiology now? I think this is a particularly valid question because if you were a strong enough candidate to match into radiology, typically you will have options in the NRMP match game.

Truly, reading these forums has demoralized me. I am wrought with doubt about my future now... I was so excited when I matched and ever since then (which is also when I started coming onto this forum) I have been depressed about my choice to go into radiology. Again, almost entirely due to what I am reading on the forums. I also see the evidence of what is being said in at the program where I am now... It's a small community hospital, maybe 350 beds. 2 years before I came, apparently there were 7 or radiologists working here (I don't know the exact number.) Today there is one radiologist who covers days, and 1 IR guy. No radiologists at night, in spite of a fairly busy ED. The jobs have all sent over to some telerads company.

I guess I'm just looking for some sort of validation which doesn't exist... I pretty much know what people are going to say in response to my posts. I am just looking to vent a little I suppose. Feeling scared about the decision you made for the rest of your life, especially when you have/HAD other options is a pretty sickening feeling.
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If you think this forum is bad, you should avoid AuntMinnie.
 
You're using the words demoralized and depressed to describe your attitude about radiology based largely off of reading comments from strangers online. You should switch. I can't say that you should switch to surgery, but switch to something else.
 
colbgw02 said:
You're using the words demoralized and depressed to describe your attitude about radiology based largely off of reading comments from strangers online. You should switch. I can't say that you should switch to surgery, but switch to something else.
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The forums are my only source of information... I'm sorry I don't know 100 radiologists I can go talk to about the issue. My program only has about 4 radiologists that I see on a daily basis... they too have told me some negative things about the job market for the field. So do tell, where should I be getting my information if not for the forums?
 
gtx780ti said:
The forums are my only source of information... I'm sorry I don't know 100 radiologists I can go talk to about the issue. My program only has about 4 radiologists that I see on a daily basis... they too have told me some negative things about the job market for the field. So do tell, where should I be getting my information if not for the forums?
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This is a source of information, but I can tell you that the information is biased toward the negative. The negativity becomes self-feeding and occasionally needs some kind of reality check. Actual data is sparse, conflicting, and sometimes of limited utility for useful prognostication. Using forums as a primary or "only" source is to rely on biased information... that's all, and posts here about the future sometimes veer toward the histrionic. If you want a guarantee of the future in either field, none exists.

You're going to get a bias from radiologists depending on their level of training. Take it all with a grain of salt. On a forum you can't verify level of training, experience, or overall trustworthiness. Talking with living radiologists might help control some of these variables, even if what they say is ultimately no more valuable for guessing the future.
 
You're sorta missing the point, but I'll bite.

You chose radiology. Presumably, you made that choice after doing some research into the field, doing radiology rotations, spending time around radiologists, etc.. That was when you should have been so worried about all of these concerns. The fact that your resources are currently limited to the handful of radiologists at your internship (I'm guessing) hospital and online forums is beside the point that you should have already addressed these issues in your own mind before matching.

If you didn't, then it speaks to the apparent haphazard nature by which you chose radiology. If you did, in fact, do your due diligence and are now being dissuaded by online forums, then it speaks to the degree of commitment by you to the field. Either way, my advice is to switch.

If you're just having buyer's remorse and would like a little reassurance, then that's fine. We all need that once in a while. But, again, your other posts used words like demoralized, depressed, and life-ruining. Those don't sound like words used by someone with fleeting doubts in search of a pat on the back. They sound like the words of someone who is unhappy and needs to do something about, like find a new job.
 
colbgw02 said:
You're sorta missing the point, but I'll bite.

You chose radiology. Presumably, you made that choice after doing some research into the field, doing radiology rotations, spending time around radiologists, etc.. That was when you should have been so worried about all of these concerns. The fact that your resources are currently limited to the handful of radiologists at your internship (I'm guessing) hospital and online forums is beside the point that you should have already addressed these issues in your own mind before matching.

If you didn't, then it speaks to the apparent haphazard nature by which you chose radiology. If you did, in fact, do your due diligence and are now being dissuaded by online forums, then it speaks to the degree of commitment by you to the field. Either way, my advice is to switch.

If you're just having buyer's remorse and would like a little reassurance, then that's fine. We all need that once in a while. But, again, your other posts used words like demoralized, depressed, and life-ruining. Those don't sound like words used by someone with fleeting doubts in search of a pat on the back. They sound like the words of someone who is unhappy and needs to do something about, like find a new job.
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I agree with above.

I don't know what works for you better, but just my 2 cents: The way that you approach things, no matter whether you stay in radiology or switch to surgery or derm or OB, your likelihood of being happy will be 1%.
 
colbgw02 said:
You're sorta missing the point, but I'll bite.

You chose radiology. Presumably, you made that choice after doing some research into the field, doing radiology rotations, spending time around radiologists, etc.. That was when you should have been so worried about all of these concerns. The fact that your resources are currently limited to the handful of radiologists at your internship (I'm guessing) hospital and online forums is beside the point that you should have already addressed these issues in your own mind before matching.

If you didn't, then it speaks to the apparent haphazard nature by which you chose radiology. If you did, in fact, do your due diligence and are now being dissuaded by online forums, then it speaks to the degree of commitment by you to the field. Either way, my advice is to switch.

If you're just having buyer's remorse and would like a little reassurance, then that's fine. We all need that once in a while. But, again, your other posts used words like demoralized, depressed, and life-ruining. Those don't sound like words used by someone with fleeting doubts in search of a pat on the back. They sound like the words of someone who is unhappy and needs to do something about, like find a new job.
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If indeed he can't land a job I'm not sure how this wouldn't be life-ruining? 300k up the creek, no way to pay off the loans, and 10 years of post-graduate training sounds pretty damn depressing, demoralizing, and "insert other negative here"...

Maybe you're missing the point and could provide something constructive beyond "you're not happy about the doom and gloom? THEN QUIT YOU BIG *****." That's literally what you sound like.

Then again, now that I think on it... everything I've ever read from you has been sarcastic with a hint of condescension, or is it the other way around? Why should anyone have expected anything different? No doubt you're thinking up a witty smart-ass response as we speak!
 
Why people think that not finding a job is something that stays with them forever?

Let's talk about the worst case scenario. You can not find a job in your desirable location during your fellowship. You have three options:
1- Getting a job in a place that is far from your home. Then take a look at your desirable area. Sooner or later, there will be an opening and you will be able to move.
2- Doing a second fellowship to stay in your desirable location. Then get the job in that location. It has worked for almost everyone that I have seen.
3- None of above. Continue to look when you finish your fellowship. Since you will be off cycle, if a group needs a radiologist for example in Nov or Dec you have a good chance since current fellows can not compete with you. While you are waiting for a job, you can still do some moonlighting here and there and make some money.

Now which of these options are really life-ruining. Seriously, is your life ruined because you make 60K (or usually more because many fellowship have internal moonlighting and also you can moonlight at local private practices.) instead of attending level income?
 
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Ok, I didn't mean to start an argument. Point taken, I was being overly dramatic...

Bottom line, I didn't really consider job market when I was choosing which fields to apply to... I enjoyed radiology so I went for it! I should have been more diligent and less haphazard and Colb mentioned.

With that said, Shark is right... getting a job eventually is all I care about. I'm not a big "location" snob. I can be happy pretty much anywhere, in fact probably happier in a less dense population area.

My big concern is the ability to do procedures... This is why I would like to avoid telerads at all costs. I enjoy coming to the hospital and interacting with patients.
 
Well, first off, interventional radiology fellowships aren't really that competitive. Mostly they are slightly competitive than they normally are at the moment because job prospects are perceived as better for IRs. The reason for this is most radiologists don't really like doing IR, which led to relatively few being trained and a shortage of IR trained guys lasting longer than in other subspecialties. When I started, only about 50-75% of IR spots would fill. Same with mammo. Relatively few people used to want to do it, so job prospects are a bit brighter and thus lots of people started doing fellowships.

Sounds like you don't care that much for radiology actually and are more of an IR / Surgery person. Not my cup of tea, but I'm glad people like that are out there. In that case I wouldn't stress to much about finding a job. Since fewer people want to pursue those lines of work, more jobs are out there.

And take online forums (especially AuntMinnie) with a huge grain of salt. There are a few well known trolls which have essentially destroyed that forum, which used to be the one used by most radiologists. One guy from India started posting about how terrible a field radiology was in order to scare away medical students to increase his chances at a residency spot a few years ago. A could other people latched on and soon every post was about how terrible a field radiology was. It became too annoying to read and most other radiologists I know fled the forum. This forum tends to be better moderated.

In truth, the job situation isn't rosy, but it's not that bad either. Everybody in my residency now in fellowship (myself included) has lined up pretty much the jobs they wanted. It sounds like you might want to switch to surgery just because you are the odd person who might like it better. However, I certainly wouldn't pick surgery over radiology just because you think the job prospects might be better.
 
Thanks for the response Jake!

I actually was consistently going back and forth between rads and surgery before the match... it truly could have gone either way, and at the last minute I made the decision to go with Rads, for various reasons. However, I really do enjoy both fields.

With that said, I love procedures... and I definitely want to go the IR route. I saw last year the match rate was about 80% for IR fellowships! It was actually one of the more competitive fellowships... not many others saw >20% go unmatched. I don't know if I mentioned this before, but I am an US citizen carib IMG... so every decision I make is an uphill battle. Lots of programs won't even look at me because of where I want to school. I'm not sure if I will still encounter this issue once it's time to apply to fellowships.

I appreciate your input and I apologize for my initial the sky in falling post. Hearing some calm and level headed voices is something I needed. As colb said, a little affirmation.
 
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