Recent NEJM article and it's effect on gastroenterology as a specialty??

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kernicterus

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hey everybody,
in the latest edition of the nejm there's an article that states that ct's are just as sensitive at detecting colon cancer as colonoscopy's.
i imagine this is an improvement in pt. care but what effect will it have on the specialty. everyone says the money is in procedures. will this cut into business?
 
How does this improve efficiency of medicine? Will it lower the rate of colonoscopies? Which is cheaper? CTs or Colonosopies? And does it make sense to do CTs when the definitive treatment is to cut the cancer out anyways. And for those who didn't read it, here's the abstract

CT Colonography versus Colonoscopy for the Detection of Advanced Neoplasia
[Original Articles]

Kim, David H.; Pickhardt, Perry J.; Taylor, Andrew J.; Leung, Winifred K.; Winter, Thomas C.; Hinshaw, J. Louis; Gopal, Deepak V.; Reichelderfer, Mark; Hsu, Richard H.; Pfau, Patrick R.
From the Department of Radiology (D.H.K., P.J.P., A.J.T., W.K.L., T.C.W., J.L.H.) and the Section of Gastroenterology and Hepatology (D.V.G., M.R., R.H.H., P.R.P.), University of Wisconsin Medical School, Madison. Address reprint requests to Dr. Kim at the Department of Radiology, University of Wisconsin Medical School, E3/311 Clinical Science Center, 600 Highland Ave., Madison, WI 53792-3252, or at [email protected].
Abstract

Background: Advanced neoplasia represents the primary target for colorectal-cancer screening and prevention. We compared the diagnostic yield from parallel computed tomographic colonography (CTC) and optical colonoscopy (OC) screening programs.

Methods: We compared primary CTC screening in 3120 consecutive adults (mean [+/-SD] age, 57.0+/-7.2 years) with primary OC screening in 3163 consecutive adults (mean age, 58.1+/-7.8 years). The main outcome measures included the detection of advanced neoplasia (advanced adenomas and carcinomas) and the total number of harvested polyps. Referral for polypectomy during OC was offered for all CTC-detected polyps of at least 6 mm in size. Patients with one or two small polyps (6 to 9 mm) also were offered the option of CTC surveillance. During primary OC, nearly all detected polyps were removed, regardless of size, according to established practice guidelines.

Results: During CTC and OC screening, 123 and 121 advanced neoplasms were found, including 14 and 4 invasive cancers, respectively. The referral rate for OC in the primary CTC screening group was 7.9% (246 of 3120 patients). Advanced neoplasia was confirmed in 100 of the 3120 patients in the CTC group (3.2%) and in 107 of the 3163 patients in the OC group (3.4%), not including 158 patients with 193 unresected CTC-detected polyps of 6 to 9 mm who were undergoing surveillance. The total numbers of polyps removed in the CTC and OC groups were 561 and 2434, respectively. There were seven colonic perforations in the OC group and none in the CTC group.

Conclusions: Primary CTC and OC screening strategies resulted in similar detection rates for advanced neoplasia, although the numbers of polypectomies and complications were considerably smaller in the CTC group. These findings support the use of CTC as a primary screening test before therapeutic OC.​

Two main questions I want to know, cost effectiveness? Will this maintain the current level of detection and will the decrease in polyp removal increase the rate of cancer.
 
Two main questions I want to know, cost effectiveness? Will this maintain the current level of detection and will the decrease in polyp removal increase the rate of cancer.

A traditional colonoscopy at the Wisconsin hospital is $3,300 and more if polyps are removed; virtual colonoscopy costs $1,186.

The detection rates are similar. So there won't be a decrease in polyp detection and removal. Rate of cancer is unchanged.

This is just the first big study. Two more these big studies and I would be worried. I'd bet that in 5 years VC will be widely adopted and mainstream.

hey everybody,
in the latest edition of the nejm there's an article that states that ct's are just as sensitive at detecting colon cancer as colonoscopy's.
i imagine this is an improvement in pt. care but what effect will it have on the specialty. everyone says the money is in procedures. will this cut into business?

I would say it would. To understand why, you have to understand why GI became so popular recently. It was because CMS around 1999 approved reimbursing for screening colonoscopies. Suddenly, GI docs could make a boatload by doing colonoscopies and there were hundreds of millions of potential customers. The reimbursement rates for colonoscopies were already dropping, but this will surely make things worse. People will probably flock back to cards.
 
http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1668162,00.html


This is not compatible with the numbers I've seen. I've seen and heard between $500 and $1500 on the very high end for a colonoscopy.

The detection rates are similar. So there won't be a decrease in polyp detection and removal. Rate of cancer is unchanged.


This study suggested removal rates were significantly different.
"Primary CTC and OC screening strategies resulted in similar detection rates for advanced neoplasia, although the numbers of polypectomies and complications were considerably smaller in the CTC group."

This does not give any data which would conclude that because they say the CT is cheaper and just as sensitive that not removing the polyps and only monitoring them maintains cost effectiveness and has no impact on the transformation to overt cancer.
 
A traditional colonoscopy at the Wisconsin hospital is $3,300 and more if polyps are removed; virtual colonoscopy costs $1,186.

The detection rates are similar. So there won't be a decrease in polyp detection and removal. Rate of cancer is unchanged.

detection rates are similar... but you can't remove anything with a virtual colonoscopy. so, the patient then has to get a traditional colonoscopy anyway. so, if you get a vc, have something detected, you end up incurring the cost of the traditional colonoscopy anyway.

i suppose the next step would be if someone has something detected at vc... then waits for a colonscopy... to be told he/she has colon cancer... will the patient say he/she was delayed in diagnosis?!? just playing devil's advocate.

another thing i'd be interested in is the false positive rate of vc.

definitely an interesting topic of debate.
 
I actually think that VC will be a boon for GI. We currently only screen about a third of patients and there is more than enough business to go around. If VC becomes like a mammogram, we'll get TONS of referrals for therapeutic colonoscopy (which you can bill more for, only takes a minute longer and is WAY more fun).

The real question will be the logistics. Does this mean that every patient with a polyp gets two bowel preps or will the practice model become that VC centers spring up in which a patient gets a VC, has it read and if its abnl they are wisked off for a colo? I think anyone with the resources to set up the latter could make a killing.
 
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This is not compatible with the numbers I've seen. I've seen and heard between $500 and $1500 on the very high end for a colonoscopy.

Thats cost is pretty close. The reimbursement from Medicare for a Endoscopy center is around $800-1200. Hospital costs are much higher. Insurance pays more but they also pay more for CTs.

This study suggested removal rates were significantly different.
"Primary CTC and OC screening strategies resulted in similar detection rates for advanced neoplasia, although the numbers of polypectomies and complications were considerably smaller in the CTC group."

This does not give any data which would conclude that because they say the CT is cheaper and just as sensitive that not removing the polyps and only monitoring them maintains cost effectiveness and has no impact on the transformation to overt cancer.
The real problem that I see is that you have to make a number of assumptions. The first is that polyps under 1 cm do not matter. There is some evidence to support this but there are a lot of small adenomas found. The other is what is the proper interval for CT? Most studies suggest a 5 year interval which gets rid of much of the benefit of the CT (there is some evidence that the current 10 year interval is too long for regular colonoscopy). The final question is what is the risk for flat polyps. They are rare but missed in almost all the CT studies. In defense of CT they get missed at a higher rate than regular polyps. The other issue not addressed is whether this just shifts the problem to another specialty. CT colonoscopy takes time to read. If there is a large volume of these where will the additional radiologists come from?

David Carpenter, PA-C
 
The other issue not addressed is whether this just shifts the problem to another specialty. CT colonoscopy takes time to read. If there is a large volume of these where will the additional radiologists come from?

Somehow, someway, the rads will rise to the challenge. 😉
 
Somehow, someway, the rads will rise to the challenge. 😉

Well the real issue is the you can remote CTs. You can't remote a colonoscopy.
Hmm wonder if the insurance companies have thought of that🙄.

David Carpenter, PA-C
 
As someone who works daily with the authors of this study, I can say that this is not a threat to GI's and their scopes. It is just another alternative way of getting screened so that the large population of patients who don't undergo screening for one reason or another have another option.

The advantages are the lower cost (shown to be lower on an population basis, even given any the people that need a conventional scope to take out polyps and the incidentals that need to be worked up) and the lack of the need for sedation (helpful if someone doesn't have a driver, has to go back to work, etc). If more people are screened, less will go on to colon cancer and the GI guys will have more diagnostic scopes.

Ideally, as is the case at our facility, there is reciprocity with the GI department so that patients are offered a same day colonoscopy if VC is positive and same day VC if there is an incomplete colonoscopy. With this setup, only one bowel prep is needed.

As for those who site the low perf rate with colonoscopy, this is undoubtedly true. However, for a screening examination on otherwise healthy patients, any perf rate is too high in my opinion.
 
As for those who site the low perf rate with colonoscopy, this is undoubtedly true. However, for a screening examination on otherwise healthy patients, any perf rate is too high in my opinion.

Spoken like a radiologist. The study assumes that flat polyps (which we know harbor higher rates of high grade dysplasia) and polyps that are <1cm are not important. It proved that detection of large, typical polyps was equivalent but was not powered for the more important question of mortality from CRC.

To say that any potential complication of a screening test is too risky is ridiculous. You can just as easily say, "one extra solid tumor as a result of radiation from a CT scan" or "one extra workup for an adrenal incidentaloma found on CT colonography resulting in the morbidity of that workup" is too much. The question of complications has to be in the context of risk/benefit.

As for "reciprocity," your place may make that work for now but I'm way too busy to count on working in every colonography abnl when I'm struggling to work in all the inpt bleeders, ercp's etc.
 
Spoken like a radiologist. The study assumes that flat polyps (which we know harbor higher rates of high grade dysplasia) and polyps that are <1cm are not important. It proved that detection of large, typical polyps was equivalent but was not powered for the more important question of mortality from CRC.

To say that any potential complication of a screening test is too risky is ridiculous. You can just as easily say, "one extra solid tumor as a result of radiation from a CT scan" or "one extra workup for an adrenal incidentaloma found on CT colonography resulting in the morbidity of that workup" is too much. The question of complications has to be in the context of risk/benefit.

As for "reciprocity," your place may make that work for now but I'm way too busy to count on working in every colonography abnl when I'm struggling to work in all the inpt bleeders, ercp's etc.
They also haven't defined the interval. If you ignore the small polyps then the interval will probably have to be five years. That wipes out most of your cost savings and doubles the radiation dose. Also you really need a 64 slice scanner to do this right. While most major medical centers have these most rural medical centers don't.

David Carpenter, PA-C
 
How many CT scan reports do you read with something along the lines of "Unclear/indeterminate for 'x' and cannot be ruled out, please correlate clinically with additional testing."?

I don't think this will harm gastroenterologists to a significant degree, as there will likely be lots of overcalling of findings on the VC that will necessitate screening with optical colonoscopy anyway.
 
How many CT scan reports do you read with something along the lines of "Unclear/indeterminate for 'x' and cannot be ruled out, please correlate clinically with additional testing."?

I don't think this will harm gastroenterologists to a significant degree, as there will likely be lots of overcalling of findings on the VC that will necessitate screening with optical colonoscopy anyway.
We didn't see a lot of those. We saw a lot of positives that turned out to be nothing (probably stool). It may be that people that had indeterminate never followed up. That is a different liability situation for rads.

David Carpenter, PA-C
 
We didn't see a lot of those. We saw a lot of positives that turned out to be nothing (probably stool). It may be that people that had indeterminate never followed up. That is a different liability situation for rads.

David Carpenter, PA-C

I'm not sure who is reading your VC that you refer to and what program they use, but for us, false positives are very rare (especially stool, this should be very rarely mistaken for a polyp).

There is a lot of mis-information being thrown about by you and others on this board.

First off, you do NOT need a 64 slice scanner to get a good VC. This is not a dynamic contrast study and an 8 slice or higher scanner is more than adequate for performing good VC. The initial Study in 2003 by Pickhardt et al actually used 4 slice scanners, also with good results.

Secondly, when done correctly (and that IS the key), there should be very rare "maybe a polyp" reads. The sensitivity and specificity of VC is very high in the 90-95% range (I can link some results when I have time). This means few false positives. So the "overcalls" that wanna-be-do talks about are few and far between.

Yes, the sensitivity for flat poylps is not great. However, the majority of these were found to be hyperplastic polyps, which have no known malignant potential.

As for the incidentals, they do happen. One thing that is emphasized to rads reading these studies is that you have to be able to blow off things that are highly unlikely to be badness (likely hepatic cysts, renal cysts, etc). On the converse side, there are significant findings (such as AAA, renal cell carcinoma, lymphoma) that are found on VC which can result in earlier therapy. There is a study that shows that even given the cost of working up incidentals, the average cost of VC is significantly lower.

As from the comment from gastrapathy that he/she is way to busy to be able to do same day scope, that is bull. Our GI docs are busy too, but they can fit in a diagnostic scope no problem. If you don't want to fit it in, just say that. Hey, maybe if VC takes some of the screening patients, you won't be so overworked.
 
I'm not sure who is reading your VC that you refer to and what program they use, but for us, false positives are very rare (especially stool, this should be very rarely mistaken for a polyp).

There is a lot of mis-information being thrown about by you and others on this board.

First off, you do NOT need a 64 slice scanner to get a good VC. This is not a dynamic contrast study and an 8 slice or higher scanner is more than adequate for performing good VC. The initial Study in 2003 by Pickhardt et al actually used 4 slice scanners, also with good results.

Sorry my bad. I meant collimation. The Meta analysis that I have seen is this one:http://www.annals.org/cgi/reprint/142/8/635.pdf

"Computed tomographic colonography is very specific,
particularly for detection of polyps larger than 9 mm. In
studies that used a multidetector scanner, low collimation,
and an optimal mode of imaging, the sensitivity of CT
colonography to detect polyps larger than 9 mm was the
highest and most consistent. However, results were inconsistent
when other technical approaches were used and
smaller polyps were present. Acceptable techniques for
colorectal cancer screening should have consistently high
sensitivity over specificity so that preneoplastic polyps are
effectively ruled out in patients with a negative result. Although
some studies have reported high sensitivities for
CT colonography, the range among all studies is broad (as
low as 21% overall, and as low as 48% for polyps greater
than 9 mm)."

Not all medical centers will have scanners capable of doing this to a high level.


Secondly, when done correctly (and that IS the key), there should be very rare "maybe a polyp" reads. The sensitivity and specificity of VC is very high in the 90-95% range (I can link some results when I have time). This means few false positives. So the "overcalls" that wanna-be-do talks about are few and far between.

I presume that you are at an academic center. I can tell you when this goes to non academic centers the prep is less than sufficient and the overcalls are frequent (at least in my experience).

Yes, the sensitivity for flat poylps is not great. However, the majority of these were found to be hyperplastic polyps, which have no known malignant potential.

Umm no. Flat polyps have a greater malignant potential than most other polyps. There is some debate on this but:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10770302&dopt=AbstractPlus



As for the incidentals, they do happen. One thing that is emphasized to rads reading these studies is that you have to be able to blow off things that are highly unlikely to be badness (likely hepatic cysts, renal cysts, etc). On the converse side, there are significant findings (such as AAA, renal cell carcinoma, lymphoma) that are found on VC which can result in earlier therapy. There is a study that shows that even given the cost of working up incidentals, the average cost of VC is significantly lower.

As from the comment from gastrapathy that he/she is way to busy to be able to do same day scope, that is bull. Our GI docs are busy too, but they can fit in a diagnostic scope no problem. If you don't want to fit it in, just say that. Hey, maybe if VC takes some of the screening patients, you won't be so overworked.

You forget that the vast majority of colonscopies are not done at hospitals but ambulatory endoscopy centers that run on a very rigid time table. There are going to be few centers that will hold time for a possible colonoscopy. The bottom line is there is good data that colonoscopies which are diagnostic and therapeutic prevent cancer. There is not data yet on VC. Also the interval and radiation risk are undetermined. While the radiology community is willing ot push this, there are still a lot of unanswered questions.

David Carpenter, PA-C
 
You forget that the vast majority of colonscopies are not done at hospitals but ambulatory endoscopy centers that run on a very rigid time table. There are going to be few centers that will hold time for a possible colonoscopy. The bottom line is there is good data that colonoscopies which are diagnostic and therapeutic prevent cancer. There is not data yet on VC. Also the interval and radiation risk are undetermined. While the radiology community is willing ot push this, there are still a lot of unanswered questions.

The meta-analysis is of studies done mostly from 2000-2004 and each study used different techniques and had different hardware and software specs. The technology shows great promise and it's just a matter of standardizing on the right technique and hardware and software. As Moore's Law predicts, technology keeps marching on with ever more powerful hardware and software. The VC's we'll do 5 years from now will be better than what we can do today and so forth. It's still early for VC, but I doubt that it will be much longer than 5 years before it's used widely. The lower cost, people's preference to not have a tube stuck in their rearend, and the potential of lawsuit for having one's bowels perfed will drive it. Regarding the latter, I think that once the cancer screening guidelines are changed to recognize VC as being just as good as OC, then there will be a lot of pressure to favor VC because it does not carry the risk of injury like OC. 1/500 chances of perfing is not insignificant to most people. Patients will be angry if the physician does not offer them the choice of VC or OC as screening method and then they end up perfing their bowel. That's a recipe for a lawsuit. If the ambulatory center doesn't have the hardware/software and the radiologist onsite to do a VC reading, the images can probably be digitally transmitted to a center that can. So that's really no excuse either. Finally, CMS and insurance companies would favor a lower cost screening method.
 
Secondly, when done correctly (and that IS the key), there should be very rare "maybe a polyp" reads. The sensitivity and specificity of VC is very high in the 90-95% range (I can link some results when I have time). This means few false positives. So the "overcalls" that wanna-be-do talks about are few and far between.

Sensitivity/specificity of any radiologic test is HIGHLY operator dependent. The key is "when done correctly" as you stated.
I can tell you that of the two CT colonographies an internist that I know ordered, both were read as indeterminate.
 
Sensitivity/specificity of any radiologic test is HIGHLY operator dependent. The key is "when done correctly" as you stated.
I can tell you that of the two CT colonographies an internist that I know ordered, both were read as indeterminate.

Bold statement about operator dependency. In case you are not aware, endoscopy is also operator dependent. Recent studies show remarkably different polyp detection rates depending on the time spent on scope and the endoscopist. The sens and spec of optical coloscopy for polyps is actually very similar to virtual colonoscopy (pts were rescoped based on VC findings and additional lesions were found)

You have to realize that this is a new procedure and the odds are the community rads you speak of likely had minimal experience. As the procedure advances and experience builds, they will improve as well.

As I write this, I am at the Virtual Colonoscopy Symposium, Dr Pickardt is speaking regarding the cost vs benefit of incidentals on VC. The average added cost of working up incidentals is about $30 per VC. 1 in 200 pts has an unsuspected extracolonic malignancy. VC can also substitute for AAA us screening. Despite these positives, mortality benefit for extracolonic findings is by no means demonstrated.
 
As I write this, I am at the Virtual Colonoscopy Symposium, Dr Pickardt is speaking regarding the cost vs benefit of incidentals on VC. The average added cost of working up incidentals is about $30 per VC. 1 in 200 pts has an unsuspected extracolonic malignancy. VC can also substitute for AAA us screening. Despite these positives, mortality benefit for extracolonic findings is by no means demonstrated.

I still have the same question. with the lower number of polypectomies, does that have any effect on progression to cancer rates.
 
I still have the same question. with the lower number of polypectomies, does that have any effect on progression to cancer rates.

Definitely a relevant and controversial question. So far, no effect. However, our follow-up is only 4 years out. There is a basis for expecting that the rates of progression to CA will not be significantly affected. The rate of malignancy or even dysplasia in lesions less than 6 mm is extremely low and ignoring these is really not controversial. However, the 6-9 mm polyps are a different issue. So far, it seems safe to follow them.

If you read the article listed in the original post, they found nearly identical percentages of advanced adenomas in VC and OC. Since the pervailing opinion is that advanced adenomas are the precursers of ca, these numbers indicate that the polyps that were not removed were not at all likely to progress.

It is definitely a paradigm shift to realize that maybe you don't need to take out every polyp. The vast majority are harmless and will remain so. The next 5 years of data will help decide this issue.
 
Bold statement about operator dependency. In case you are not aware, endoscopy is also operator dependent.

Yes, I'm somewhat aware of this 😉


You have to realize that this is a new procedure and the odds are the community rads you speak of likely had minimal experience. As the procedure advances and experience builds, they will improve as well.

I agree. I believe that this will be the future for colon cancer screening. I just think that right at this moment it is not quite ready, and that the only thing that will make it ready is for more of them to be done and more experience to be gained among community radiologists.
 
Since I am interested in GI, I wanna share my view with you:

We should call it CTC since virtual colonoscopy is now called CTC (CT colonoscopy).

The perforation rate in the NEJM study is MUCH, MUCH higher than the rates known or accepted in other studies. Why so high? Quality of GI guys who did the procedures is questionable. Moreover, the sutdy is not well-randomized to begin with. It is amazing to me that how this quality of paper got into NEJM (politics?)

Rad should be more careful with putting a CTC guideline. Do you know that there is an increasing prevalence of small, flat serrated adenomas with high grade dysplasia or even cancer? Why? it's becuase GI did not know about it much until recently. This is and will be a highly ligitious area for rad. The lawers would lover this.

Neverthless, just like cardiologists using the cardiac CT or MRI, GI should be ready to use the techonology when it gets mature in 5-10 years. The CTC task-force from GI societies (AGA, ASGE, and ACG) recently published a guideline for GI people should embrace and learn to use the techonology fully. Furthermore, the societies endorsed GI to get trained to use the CTC. I already see many GI groups are buying CTC scanners to use. GI guys are getting trained to read and use CTC. There are a number of places such as Boston and other cities offering training. I predict that there will be many out patient GI ambulatory surgical centers offering both tests on the same day.
 
The lawers would lover this.

Neverthless, just like cardiologists using the cardiac CT or MRI, GI should be ready to use the techonology when it gets mature in 5-10 years. The CTC task-force from GI societies (AGA, ASGE, and ACG) recently published a guideline for GI to use the techonology. Furthermore, the societies endorsed GI to get trained to use the CTC. I already see many GI groups are buying CTC scanners to use. GI guys are getting trained to read and use CTC. There are a number of places such as Boston and other cities offering training. I predict that there will be many out patient GI ambulatory surgical centers offering both tests on the same day.

Speaking of what the lawyers love, you forget that VC (still an acceptable name) is a full abd and pelvis ct. GI docs are not qualified to read these. Overread fee splitting arrangements will likely be legally challenged in the near future (medicare laws). Having read vc, i can say that it requires a lot of 2d radiology skills that take quite a while to learn.

I believe there will be room for both oc and vc in the future.
 
Neverthless, just like cardiologists using the cardiac CT or MRI, GI should be ready to use the techonology when it gets mature in 5-10 years. The CTC task-force from GI societies (AGA, ASGE, and ACG) recently published a guideline for GI to use the techonology. Furthermore, the societies endorsed GI to get trained to use the CTC. I already see many GI groups are buying CTC scanners to use. GI guys are getting trained to read and use CTC. There are a number of places such as Boston and other cities offering training. I predict that there will be many out patient GI ambulatory surgical centers offering both tests on the same day.

You should read up on what the DRA is doing to the cards, ortho, ent guys who bought scanners to do self-referrals. They're going out of business. Believe it or not, the tide is turning in favor of rads to reclaim their lost ground in cardiac imaging.

The only people who will do well in interpreting images in the future are those who are dedicated to imaging. It can't be a side thing. How many images can a GI squeeze into a day between doing clinic, rounding, EGD's, ERCP's, OC's? Not even a fraction of the 15k images an average rad may interpret per year. Being dedicated means you are proficient to avoid mistakes and efficient to plow through a huge volume.

With ~1000 graduates from radiology residencies per year, I think that the rads have the numbers in their favor. 👍
 
I didn't have time to post this last time. I realize that this is considered by some gi docs to be a threat to their livelihood, since screening oc is such a big part of gi practices. In my opinion, vc is an additional modality that is available to screen the large population of pts over age 50 that need screening but, for one reason or another don't get it.

There is still a large population that will chose conventional scopes for screening and a large number that will require the better reimbursed diagnostic scope after vc. In my opinion, a vc will help screen a larger population than is currently screened and will be a net positive in patient care. I would not, in any way be concerned about the future if gi as a specialty.
 
My two comments.

1. If you were a patient, would you want to get your colon cleaned out twice and have a tube stick up your ass TWICE just because the radiologist can't really make up their mind?

2. If anything VCT/or CTC whatever you guys want to call it is gonna generate a huge increase in referral for GI doct for "suspect lesion" which turn into some thick fold or therapeutic scopes which are more fun to do and pays more anyways!

3. Don't forget the flat lesions... all it takes is for a few "trained" radiologist to miss these and get into trouble before we are back to square one which is already keeping GI docts busy. In my opinion, its a win win situation for GI guys.

4. Untill rads can take polyps out, put in stents, do ERCPs, do EUS, do NOTES GI is still the way to go... for those rads who want to do these things, why going into rads? go into GI 🙂




I didn't have time to post this last time. I realize that this is considered by some gi docs to be a threat to their livelihood, since screening oc is such a big part of gi practices. In my opinion, vc is an additional modality that is available to screen the large population of pts over age 50 that need screening but, for one reason or another don't get it.

There is still a large population that will chose conventional scopes for screening and a large number that will require the better reimbursed diagnostic scope after vc. In my opinion, a vc will help screen a larger population than is currently screened and will be a net positive in patient care. I would not, in any way be concerned about the future if gi as a specialty.
 
Agree with the previous poster, you get a tube up your ass either way, no real benefit there.

The perf rate in the last NEJM study was way high, not sure what was up with that. BTW there have been perfs reported with VC.

As for patient pref this has been looked at and it's =. Although I imagine if you ask the guy who has to do the 2nd bowel prep he'd be a little less happy...

The comments about holding slots in an ASC to do same day OC following + VC are also right on, the ASC's are really tight schedules. Unless the group owns the CT scanner and/or the radiologist, there is no incentive to hold slots.

Having said all that, once prepless VC is figured out, there will be a shift towards VC, not enough to decrease the business for GI's (I hope), but more people will get screened and we'll do more polypectomies.
Of note the screening guidelines will likely change soon too, with AA, smokers and the obese starting screening at a younger age.
 
Just read the paper... what a piece of trash!

1. Whats going on with the perforation rate? Who are doing these colons?
2. Lead author is on the payroll for the company who makes the software which is clearly biased
3. This paper assume that the detection rate of polyp is similar between OC and VC which is debatable. Plus, they didn't mention what happened to those patient who were detected to have lesion >1cm? did they undergo an OC to confirm the finding? maybe on OC they found more polyps thats >1cm!
4. The groups were not randomly controlled (i guess this is not their fault since this is mostly a retrospective analysis)
5. They basically ignore lesions <1cm which we know that about at least 40% of them will likely be pre-cancerous.

This is just some stuff i thought of after reading the first few page...

Something to think about before we all jump on the bandwagon.
 
He who controls the patient determines what kind of workup a patient receives and where a patient gets his workup. Do not fear friends!
 
Most of us dont want to state the obvious..

The CT will avoid a perforation which is a bad bad bad adverse event and costs a lot of money cause we have the OR involved and it's officially a surgery.

I think there is no avoiding the virtual colonoscopies despite the negative things about it such as missing the small polyps or the really flat polyps. It will become more money efficient as the price tag on virtual colonoscopies drops.
 
Most of us dont want to state the obvious..

The CT will avoid a perforation which is a bad bad bad adverse event and costs a lot of money cause we have the OR involved and it's officially a surgery.

I think there is no avoiding the virtual colonoscopies despite the negative things about it such as missing the small polyps or the really flat polyps. It will become more money efficient as the price tag on virtual colonoscopies drops.
Keep telling the patients that and the lawyers will have a field day. The published perf rates in the various studies for VC are around 1/1700 to 1/1900. The published perf rate for colonoscopies in community centers are around 1/1000. The rate for polypectomies is around 7/1000 and and conversely the rate for non-polypectomies is around 0.9/1000. You do avoid some of the other complications such as bleeding. However, like perforation these are substantially increased in polypectomy which you are not doing in VC. The other issue that is not addressed is that GI offices are designed to respond to post polypectomy issues. Who is going to address these issues in a radiology practice? This is similar to the problem seen when FP does colonoscopies. The perf rate is higher is some cases, but the outcomes are worse since FP offices are worse at recognizing complications (especially in cases where not all the FP does colonoscopy). Given the current evidence, if you are telling patients there is no danger of perf for VC then you are practically guaranteeing a lawsuit when you have one. Also not all perforations lead to surgery.
A nice article on perforations from Kaiser:
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/550252
An older article that talks about VC and perf rates:
http://www.diagnosticimaging.com/techfocus/inreview2004/16.jhtml

David Carpenter, PA-C
 
Keep telling the patients that and the lawyers will have a field day. The published perf rates in the various studies for VC are around 1/1700 to 1/1900. The published perf rate for colonoscopies in community centers are around 1/1000. The rate for polypectomies is around 7/1000 and and conversely the rate for non-polypectomies is around 0.9/1000. You do avoid some of the other complications such as bleeding. However, like perforation these are substantially increased in polypectomy which you are not doing in VC. The other issue that is not addressed is that GI offices are designed to respond to post polypectomy issues. Who is going to address these issues in a radiology practice? This is similar to the problem seen when FP does colonoscopies. The perf rate is higher is some cases, but the outcomes are worse since FP offices are worse at recognizing complications (especially in cases where not all the FP does colonoscopy). Given the current evidence, if you are telling patients there is no danger of perf for VC then you are practically guaranteeing a lawsuit when you have one. Also not all perforations lead to surgery.
A nice article on perforations from Kaiser:
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/550252
An older article that talks about VC and perf rates:
http://www.diagnosticimaging.com/techfocus/inreview2004/16.jhtml

David Carpenter, PA-C


I dont care if the rate is super small.. it's there. You're gonna need an ostomy and then later an anastomosis. That's two operations right there. There are more adverse events as well such as bleeding (yes even without a biopsy) Rate of serious adverse events is 5 per 1000. CT colonoscopy is none invasive and will have a much lower number of serious adverse events which require admission. Let the lawyers have a blast, you are not going to say there are "ZERO" adverse events, that's just plain stupid. Even a peripheral CBC has some adverse events but it has a lower set of adverse events than getting a central line to do a CBC. Bottom line, CT colonoscopies promise adverse events per large numbers for similar detection rates.

I am sure people thought abdominal CT scans were stupid initially when they can go to laparotomy straight up.. now a days no surgeon will go to laparotomy without a CT scan.
 
Keep telling the patients that and the lawyers will have a field day. The published perf rates in the various studies for VC are around 1/1700 to 1/1900. The published perf rate for colonoscopies in community centers are around 1/1000. The rate for polypectomies is around 7/1000 and and conversely the rate for non-polypectomies is around 0.9/1000. You do avoid some of the other complications such as bleeding. However, like perforation these are substantially increased in polypectomy which you are not doing in VC. The other issue that is not addressed is that GI offices are designed to respond to post polypectomy issues. Who is going to address these issues in a radiology practice? This is similar to the problem seen when FP does colonoscopies. The perf rate is higher is some cases, but the outcomes are worse since FP offices are worse at recognizing complications (especially in cases where not all the FP does colonoscopy). Given the current evidence, if you are telling patients there is no danger of perf for VC then you are practically guaranteeing a lawsuit when you have one. Also not all perforations lead to surgery.
A nice article on perforations from Kaiser:
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/550252
An older article that talks about VC and perf rates:
http://www.diagnosticimaging.com/techfocus/inreview2004/16.jhtml

David Carpenter, PA-C

So many things to respond to, so little time. I'll start with this one. Perforations due to CTC are almost exclusively in diagnostic studies, not screening ones. Very different. Here is a more complete study. Presented at the American Roentgen Ray Society meeting last year:

097. Incidence of Significant Complications at CT Colonography: Collective Experience of the Working Group on Virtual Colonoscopy

Pickhardt P.J.1,2*; Barish M.A.2; Barlow D.S.2; Choi J.R.2; Dachman A.H.2; Fenlon H.M.2; Ferrucci J.T.2; Laghi A.2; Lefere P.2; Macari M.2; McFarland E.G.2; Morrin M.M.2; Paulson E.K.2; Soto J.2; Stoker J.2; Yee J.2; Zalis M.E.2; 1. Radiology, University of Wisconsin Medical School, Madison, WI; 2. Radiology, Working Group on Virtual Colonoscopy, Boston.

Address correspondence to P.J. Pickhardt ([email protected])

Objective: To determine the frequency of significant complications at CT colonography (CTC).

Materials and Methods: A formal survey of the "Working Group on Virtual Colonoscopy" was conducted, with respondents representing 16 medical centers from 5 countries. Primary measurement outcomes included the symptomatic perforation rate and the overall significant complication rate. A "significant complication" was defined asany potentially CTC-related event leading to hospitalization. Data were also collected on the number and type of CTC studies performed, colonic distention technique, and presence of a monitoring physician.

Results: The group performed a total of 21,923 CTC studies dating back to 1997, with 11 of 16 centers performing at least 1,000 examinations. The slight majority of CTC studies (53.4%) were labeled as screening and the remaining 46.6% were diagnostic. Colonic distention was achieved by manual room air insufflation in 59.6% of cases (directly controlled by patient in 12.7%) and by automated carbon dioxide delivery in 40.4%. Direct physician monitoring of CTC studies was reported in 45.8% of cases, with individual center practices ranging from 0–100%. Perforations were recorded in two patients undergoing diagnostic CTC; manual room air insufflation was employed in both cases. One patient was asymptomatic and neither hospitalization nor treatment was required. The second patient was hospitalized and treated but was already symptomatic prior to CTC due to annular sigmoid carcinoma and received only 2–3 puffs of air. The symptomatic perforation rate was therefore 0.0046% (1/21,923). No perforations were recorded in patients undergoing screening CTC or with automated carbon dioxide delivery. Three additional patients were admitted following CTC, two for renal failure and one for chest pain, yielding a significant complication rate of 0.018% (4/21,923).

Conclusion: The safety profile for CTC is extremely favorable, particularly for asymptomatic screening and distention with automated carbon dioxide. Higher complication rates reported by other groups may relate to factors of patient selection and distention technique.
 
It will become more money efficient as the price tag on virtual colonoscopies drops.

I think that there's little doubt that CMS will cut reimbursement for VC to the bone in the future. How do you still eke out a living when the profit margin is really low? You make up for it through volume. This is the Wal-Mart model.

When VC gains popularity, both GI and radiologists will probably do them initially. However, as the cuts come in, the GI docs will abandon VC altogether. Rads can still do nicely because they do large volumes. This is exactly what is happening to the cards, ortho, and ent guys after DRA. Everyone should stick with what they're good at.
 
When VC gains popularity, both GI and radiologists will probably do them initially. However, as the cuts come in, the GI docs will abandon VC altogether. Rads can still do nicely because they do large volumes. This is exactly what is happening to the cards, ortho, and ent guys after DRA. QUOTE]

This is not what I hear from my card friends. The profit margins from cardiac CT and MRI are much better than SOME of other cardiac tests. It's obvious that Cards will rule the cardiac CT and MRI world since they control the patient-influx. The samething apply to the CTC. I heard from a number of GI guys already doing CTC in their group practices that the profit margins are much higher than they expected. All of them love it!

I heard some GI fellowships program are already starting to incorporate this into their training and research. As the CTC task force from the multi-GI societies mentioned before, GI and GI training programs should embrace the CTC. They know that the CTC technology is not rady for the prime time, but GI should be the ready for it.

Neurology took over the neuroradiology successfully.
Cardiology took over the cardiac radiology successfuly.
Thus, GI see the need to change, will change, and will win.
 
This is not what I hear from my card friends. The profit margins from cardiac CT and MRI are much better than SOME of other cardiac tests. It's obvious that Cards will rule the cardiac CT and MRI world since they control the patient-influx. The samething apply to the CTC. I heard from a number of GI guys already doing CTC in their group practices that the profit margins are much higher than they expected. All of them love it!

I heard some GI fellowships program are already starting to incorporate this into their training and research. As the CTC task force from the multi-GI societies mentioned before, GI and GI training programs should embrace the CTC. They know that the CTC technology is not rady for the prime time, but GI should be the ready for it.

Neurology took over the neuroradiology successfully.
Cardiology took over the cardiac radiology successfuly.
Thus, GI see the need to change, will change, and will win.

:laugh: Thanks for the laugh. I needed it.

Outpatient imaging: Back to the hospital?
10/5/2007
By: Kate Madden Yee, staff writer

Nothing stays the same for long, and the field of medical imaging is no different, especially in light of the Deficit Reduction Act (DRA) of 2005 legislation that went into effect this year.

One particular way the DRA seems to be influencing the flow of care in medical imaging is in outpatient services: As freestanding centers cope with reimbursement cuts to their Medicare patient base, hospitals are jockeying to pick up some of the slack.

"The outpatient market has been fueled by entrepreneurs, but with the advent of the DRA and tighter financing requirements, that fuel is drying up," said Steve Renard, president of SR Consulting, a healthcare consulting firm that works with outpatient and inpatient imaging centers. "Entrepreneurs have been in the driver's seat, with 50% to 60% shares in outpatient ventures with hospitals, or excluding hospitals altogether. The attitude toward hospitals in the past has been, 'You can be part of this if you want to.' Today it's: 'Will you please partner with us?' and a willingness to take the minority position."

Hardest hit are those who established imaging centers two years ago or less, and bought their equipment at the high end of the business cycle, Renard said. Now they're defaulting to the tune of 10% to 12%, and some predict that these percentages will increase to 15% or 16% in 2008. In the face of these numbers, it's no wonder selling the majority share of a freestanding imaging center to a hospital sounds good to lenders.

According to Renard, this pendulum swing is in keeping with the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services' (CMS) goal: to clamp down on overuse of imaging outside hospital systems so those systems can remain healthy. Combine that with the competitive reimbursement advantage hospitals have in the outpatient market under ambulatory payment classifications (APCs) -- that is, if the hospital retains majority ownership in the outpatient center venture -- and outpatient imaging begins to look like a good service to focus on for hospitals and their networks.

More often, hospitals are partnering with an existing freestanding center, rather than trying to either build or move an outpatient center on its existing campus, Renard said. In some cases, the freestanding center owner becomes the minority partner who manages the facility, providing the service-oriented expertise that hospitals can lack.

Ramping up the retail mindset

"The DRA has sharpened everyone's focus on retail service principles," said Milan diPierro, chief operating officer at Ivy Ventures, a Richmond, VA-based firm that works with hospitals to develop outpatient growth strategies. "Hospitals are responding to independent centers' efforts to solidify their client base via service improvements with similar initiatives."

A hospital has benefits that freestanding centers do not: the continuum of care that can be offered under one (virtual) roof, client loyalty and long-time experience with the hospital, and brand awareness within a community, diPierro said. All of these perks can give a hospital or hospital network a competitive edge as compared to the local mom-and-pop MRI center.

"We tell our clients that (focusing on customer service) is good business, regardless of the DRA," he said. "If you provide superior customer service, you can win business from your competition. But it's not just a matter of making some scheduling and parking fixes -- it's a continuous loop that requires feedback and ongoing improvements."

What has made freestanding imaging popular is that patients want to be able to get imaging services at a convenient location -- maybe one where they can also accomplish other errands in addition to the imaging appointment -- without having to navigate a hospital infrastructure or sit in a waiting room packed with people who may be acutely ill, diPierro said. It's not surprising that hospitals would be interested in acquiring these freestanding centers as a way to accentuate outpatient imaging services.

Shifting the marketing paradigm for a hospital can be a challenge, since most are more familiar with providing services rather than marketing them. And to the extent hospitals do market themselves, they often focus on their patient base, rather than cultivating relationships with referring physicians and their staff.

Case study: North Shore Radiology

An example of how hospitals are putting energy into outpatient imaging services is in a recent deal between North Shore Radiology, a subsidiary of North Shore-Long Island Jewish Health System in Glen Cove, NY, and Ivy Ventures. North Shore hired Ivy to help it expand its outpatient imaging services by offering strategic planning, analyzing relationships with physician groups, assessing the market and competitive environment, helping with equipment investment and selection, and marketing.

"Our goal is to gain presence in the ambulatory service marketplace that will allow us to coordinate ambulatory imaging with other types of ancillary services physicians use," said Rob Scoskie, vice president of business development at North Shore. "While we have the benefit of scale as a large system, we also want to be nimble in the marketplace."

In this vein, North Shore plans to provide advanced imaging modalities adjacent to ambulatory service lines, Scoskie said. If freestanding imaging centers have provided generic service, then North Shore will provide specific service by offering imaging technology that meets specialists' needs.

"Part of why we chose to partner with Ivy is that we recognized a critical need to be responsive to our patient base," Scoskie said. "Working with an outside entity can help us compete against those who have a business model that has worked pre-DRA."

How can hospital administrators decide the best way to increase outpatient service? Start by understanding the contribution margin for imaging at the facility, diPierro advises.

"Do a good calculation and figure out how much profit would be generated by one additional MR or CT exam," he said. "Once you understand that, you can make a more educated decision as to how best to expand outpatient services."

The other metric is a hospital's modality utilization. How full are particular pieces of equipment? Are they operating at maximum capacity, or are there creative ways of opening up more patient time, therefore getting a better return on investment? It's best not to assume a modality is at full tilt, according to diPierro.

"If you ask administrators at a hundred hospitals whether they can get more exams out of a piece of equipment, chances are nearly every one of them will say they're at capacity," he said. "But at every hospital we've worked with, we've found more capacity without having to recommend that the hospital purchase more equipment. Sometimes, just hiring personnel who can expedite patients through the exam process can speed up throughput and shorten appointment times."
 
Here's another one of my favorite articles.

Dr. Perry Pickhardt, a radiologist and associate professor of radiology at the University of Wisconsin in Madison, had no qualms about gastroenterologists performing VC.

"I welcome the few gastroenterologists who might actually do it well," Pickhardt wrote in an e-mail to AuntMinnie.com. "But most will struggle mightily."

Gastroenterologists plan to perform VC
1/25/2007
By: Eric Barnes, staff writer

Like a long-frozen glacier slipping off an ice shelf, organized gastroenterology is warming to the idea of virtual colonoscopy as a component of colon cancer screening. Whether the floe will eventually collide with radiology is an open question.

Evidence of the thaw comes from a recent report by the American Gastroenterological Association (AGA), whose conclusions represent a sea change for gastroenterology. Gastroenterologists would not only accept virtual colonoscopy -- a technology some have characterized as inadequate, uneven, and unproven -- but according to the report, they would bypass radiology entirely and perform it on their own.

"It is the position of the American Gastroenterological Association Institute that gastroenterologists should be able to use and manage any technology that will enable them to deliver better patient care, even if that technology is computed tomographic colonography (CTC or virtual colonoscopy [VC]), a controversial imaging test that has divided some in the gastroenterological community," begins the November report from the AGA's Future Trends Committee (Gastroenterology, November 2006, Vol. 131:5, pp. 1627-1628).

Praise for scanning

To be sure, many prominent gastroenterologists have supported the idea of VC screening all along, reserving their final approval (along with many radiologists) only for the day when a second large multicenter trial demonstrates consistently high accuracy.

"Virtual colonoscopy ... seems to hold great promise for the detection of significant lesions within the colon, and provides an excellent opportunity for collaborations with abdominal radiologists," wrote gastroenterologist Dr. Bernard Levin in an e-mail to AuntMinnie.com. Levin, who is not associated with the AGA report or its authors, is vice president for cancer prevention and population sciences at the University of Texas M. D. Anderson Cancer Center in Houston.

"I believe that gastroenterologists should become familiar with all new technologies including virtual colonoscopy that enhance the care of their patients," Levin wrote.

Virtual colonoscopy is an exciting technology that has evolved rapidly, said Dr. David Lieberman, a professor of medicine and chief of gastroenterology at Oregon Health and Science University in Portland, in an interview with AuntMinnie.com. "It doesn't surprise me that members of the GI community might want to embrace it if it's useful in terms of providing GI care for people." Close coordination with radiologists will probably be an important element of any practice model, he said.

According to Dr. Robert Sandler, vice president of the AGA Institute and Future Trends Committee member, the report is entirely consistent with the organization's longstanding favorable view of VC as a potentially important technology.

"The AGA has had an open mind about CT colonography, and in fact has advocated for a category I CPT code so that physicians could get paid for CTC," Sandler told AuntMinnie.com in an interview, noting that other organizations, such as the American College of Gastroenterology (ACG), have been more critical.

The leader of the Future Trends Committee, Dr. Timothy Cragin Wang, also spoke to AuntMinnie.com. Wang is a professor of medicine and chief of gastroenterology at Columbia University Medical Center in New York City.

Wang acknowledged an economic inducement to perform VC in gastroenterology practices, but said the committee's real task was to make the AGA Institute "more nimble as an organization and more forward-thinking" by first imagining the gastroenterology practice of the future, evaluating all of the emerging technologies that might play a role in it, then planning for their incorporation.

"I think the general consensus was that there would probably be a little less screening colonoscopy, and probably more colonoscopy with the point of view of taking out the polyps rather than initially detecting them," Wang said.

Thus, "in the not-too-distant future," virtual colonoscopy "may exert significant influence on how the field is defined," the report authors stated.

VC was "one of the issues that caught the attention of the Futures Committee because it could be a revolutionary technology if proven, and could be a primary way to screen for colorectal cancer in the future," Sandler said.

Learning to read

The report cautions that despite VC's "many theoretical advantages ... a number of issues, including relative sensitivity, technological challenges, standardization of test performance, and cost and reimbursement issues, need to be addressed before (VC) is broadly accepted as a viable alternative to conventional colonoscopy for colorectal cancer screening."

Gastroenterologists are of many opinions on virtual colonoscopy, Sandler said. "There are those who think CTC technology is viable; there are early adopters that would like a chance to participate. There's a group of people who think that the advantages of optical colonoscopy make it a better screening test for colon cancer in that if any lesions are found they can be removed. Then there are people who say wait and see."

Economic issues aside, why would a gastroenterologist want to perform the exam?

"I think that the position of the AGA is that gastroenterologists have devoted a lot of their career to examining the colon, and therefore it would not be inappropriate for gastroenterologists to examine the colon with CT scans with appropriate training and credentialing," Sandler said. "It's not awfully different from cardiologists doing nuclear angiography or gynecologists doing ultrasound of the pelvis. Physicians other than radiologists have done imaging studies in lots of different areas."

The report outlines the AGA Institute's plans, in cooperation with three other gastroenterology societies, to implement VC in gastroenterology practices. Gastroenterology will develop its own training standards for performing VC, and a business model that gastroenterologists can use to incorporate the exam into their practices. The first training session for gastroenterologists will take place sometime this year, though details have not been finalized.

Lieberman said it may be premature for gastroenterology to embrace VC before the technology has shown proven results -- for example, in multicenter trials such as the National CT Colonography Trial (ACRIN 6664), for which results are expected later this year. "To me, it's putting the cart before the horse," he said. And despite some success with the virtual exam in academic and elite centers, "we don't know how VC performs in the ... community setting."

"The initiative that gastroenterology wants to be more involved with CT colonography is good news," wrote Dr. Elizabeth McFarland, an adjunct professor at the Mallinckrodt Institute of Radiology in St. Louis and leader of the Reston, VA-based American College of Radiology's VC task force, in an e-mail to AuntMinnie.com. "Other disciplines, including gastroenterology, will be essential to shape its further development. In today's pay-for-performance environment, whoever performs and reads it will have to meet defined quality standards. The potential of CTC to increase colorectal screening and/or surveillance of specific patient cohorts will only be realized with effective collaborations and efforts."

Polyp pitfalls

Other radiologists contacted for this story took a dim view of the gastroenterology initiative.

Dr. Abraham Dachman, a professor of radiology at the University of Chicago, said VC is more complex than the casual observer might realize, and is probably not time-efficient for the nonradiologist to learn.

"High-quality screening and diagnostic CT colonography requires quality assurance by the CT technologist while the patient is in the CT suite, and sometimes additional scanning in different positions or with intravenous contrast is helpful," he wrote in an e-mail to AuntMinnie.com. "The reader must be able to respond to these technical questions."

Analogous to the American College of Cardiology Foundation (ACCF) and American Heart Association (AHA) consensus statement on clinical competence for cardiac imaging (Journal of the American College of Cardiology, July 19, 2005, Vol. 486:2, pp. 383-402), Dachman said the reader must be knowledgeable and certified in the use of radiation and intravenous contrast agents.

"This is not intrinsic to the skills of a nonradiologist," he wrote. "If a nonradiologist cannot supervise a CT technologist doing a difficult scan, then they had best not get involved in interpreting the exam."

Dachman also stressed the importance of extracolonic findings, an area in which gastroenterologists cannot be expected to have the training to read adequately.

"Clinically important extracolonic findings are more common in nonscreening cohorts, but even in screening cohorts, represent a low-cost patient benefit," he wrote. Even at low radiation doses, findings can be conspicuous and pose a medicolegal risk to any nonradiologist venturing to interpret CTC."

Sandler responded that following up on extracolonic findings creates risks of its own, and said that in any case radiologists could be hired to look for them, even based outside the U.S. if necessary.

"Extracolonic findings will be a big problem for the erstwhile gastroenterologist CTC reader," according to Dr. Joseph Ferrucci, a professor of radiology at Boston Medical Center in Massachusetts. "Reputable radiologists won't touch the inevitable murky offer for a split-read contract. Malpractice liability for reading errors will be a threat," he wrote in an e-mail to AuntMinnie.com.

Dr. Judy Yee, a professor of medicine and chief of radiology at San Francisco VA Medical Center, said the learning curve for nonradiologists would be very steep.

"The interpretation of CTC includes expert training in not only the 3D endoluminal fly-through, but how to use 2D axial and multiplanar reformat views interactively with the 3D views," Yee wrote in an e-mail to AuntMinnie.com. "Gastroenterologists typically have no training in CT technology or interpretation. Radiologists have realized that there is a steep learning curve for CTC, and this is true even for readers who have prior CT experience. Unless the gastroenterologists are willing to devote significant time for training in this technique ... then it is better in the hands of radiologists."

Pitfalls relating to reading proficiency and extracolonic abnormalities among nonradiologists will certainly need to be addressed, Levin wrote. "In the best situations, the collaborations between radiologists and gastroenterologist will ensure quality," he stated.

Wang declined to discuss questions about reading proficiency or liability, saying his job as the Future Trends Committee leader was to describe in broad strokes the potential technologies gastroenterologists should evaluate -- not the details of how a gastroenterology-led VC practice might unfold in the clinical setting. As for extracolonic findings, he said they "should probably be read -- and probably by a radiologist."

"Except for the obvious financial incentives, it is not clear why gastroenterologists, who claim that there are not enough of them to perform all the required screening colonoscopies in this country, would want to take on a new technique that would be time-consuming for them and take them away from what they do best," Yee wrote. The resulting strain on manpower "could also have negative consequences for patients," she stated.

The idea, Sandler responded, is that by incorporating virtual colonoscopy into the screening mix, gastroenterologists would free up some of the time they previously spent performing optical colonoscopy, easing at least to some extent the capacity shortage for optical colonoscopy that is expected to worsen as the U.S. population continues to age.

Citing time constraints, Dr. Douglas Rex, a gastroenterologist and professor of medicine at the Indiana University School of Medicine in Indianapolis, declined to comment for this article. But in a November 14, 2006, New York Times article he suggested that gastroenterologists are busy enough already.

"We have a lot of organs," Rex told the newspaper. "The esophagus, the stomach, the small bowel, the liver, the pancreas -- I think we've got a lot to do."

Wang told AuntMinnie.com that he agreed with Rex, adding, "in general, the way gastroenterologists do our specialty is that we should be the primary physicians for all digestive diseases, all digestive organs. So whatever screening test is decided, we probably will need to play a major role, at least in evaluating the technology, deciding what's best for the patients, both diagnosing the diseases and following up on the diseases. So whether or not it makes sense for gastroenterologists to do VC, I don't know the answer to that. But we probably need to play a major role."

One reason: Gastroenterologists tend to be better at patient care, according to Sandler.

"The difference between gastroenterologists and the radiologists is that we sit down with the patients and sort of discuss options," Sandler said. "The radiologists are often on the receiving end for patients who are referred from other physicians. We might explain to someone over 50 that there's about a 30% chance they'll have a polyp.... There are two technologies: there's one (colonoscopy) where we remove what we see, and there's the other (CTC) where we refer what we see and we ignore what we don't see."

"Smart radiologists will bypass gastroenterologists entirely and market CTC directly to primary care providers," Ferrucci wrote. "The paradigm is mammography, which has largely displaced breast surgeons out of the business of breast cancer screening."

Gastroenterologists "can't do everything," Wang said. "But the radiologists couldn't probably currently do it either. And I don't know how it's all going to work out, but I think everyone agrees that we need more colorectal cancer screening."

Dr. Perry Pickhardt, a radiologist and associate professor of radiology at the University of Wisconsin in Madison, had no qualms about gastroenterologists performing VC.

"I welcome the few gastroenterologists who might actually do it well," Pickhardt wrote in an e-mail to AuntMinnie.com. "But most will struggle mightily."
 
1) The perf rate for that study was WAY too high. Our group of six did 8,000 colons last year with no perforations. I don't know, who the heck is scoping in Madison? the general surgery residents it sounds like.

2) In response to You're gonna need an ostomy and then later an anastomosis. That is not true...I just spoke to a gi guy who perfed a diverticulum and closed it via clipping and the patient was FINE...our interventionalist did this several times as well in the esophagus durning my fellowship.

3) I am learning EUS right now, and I'm sure reading those is much more difficult than reading a CT of the colon. When the 3D colon imaging gets so good, I cant imagine it will be that hard to read (even for GI guys).
But I think CT colonography is still a few years from prime time, especially in smaller communities.

4) CTC could increase our business if a bunch of the poeple who are not getting screened get picked up. Not to mention if they CT the whole abdomen they will undoubtedly pick up a bunch of pancreas cysts...and then they will need an EUS.










You're gonna need an ostomy and then later an anastomosis.
 
I don't think it's really a question can a GI doc be trained to read VC. It's more a question of will they get a good return on the equipment that they have to invest in to do VC? Not only do you have to buy the hardware/software and learn how to read VC correctly but more importantly you also have to maintain your setup and your skills, ie, trouble-shoot problems, upgrading, pay annual licensing fees, keep current with research and standards, etc. If you can fit in only 30 readings per month between clinic, rounding, EGD's, etc, will you make enough profit to justify the costs, time, and headaches? You probably won't unless you basically become a radiologist. Doing colonoscopy is not rocket science either. If FM docs and even nurses can do colonoscopies, then what's to stop radiologists from setting up shop and doing them too? It's because radiologists wouldn't be able to fit in enough colonoscopies between their other responsibilities to justify the colonoscopy equipment investment and upkeep. We should stick with what we do best and in high volume. This is the most efficient use of healthcare dollars and what CMS has in mind as it is attempting to crack down on self-referral abuse.
 
I don't think it's really a question can a GI doc be trained to read VC. It's more a question of will they get a good return on the equipment that they have to invest in to do VC? Doing colonoscopy is not rocket science either. If FM docs and even nurses can do colonoscopies, then what's to stop radiologists from setting up shop and doing them too?

I am also interested in the GI speciality like you are.

It is a win-win situation for GI. The recent economic model of GI CTC presented at a major GI meeting showed that the profit return is very good. The conclusion was that GI should seek after CTC. Probably, better than some of the premiere GI procedures.

I predict that the GI will have ~75% of the CTC market and rad will have the remaining 25% in the future. Card won over the cardiac CT and MRI battle because they are internists. Many GIs and Cards practices are in multi-group internal medicine specialty settings. They will always refer the patients to one another who can actually treat or fix the problems they see on the CTC or the cardaic CT. This will never change although you wish for it.
 
june015b,

the self-referral situations you describe are unethical and have been shown to increase medical costs. clinicians are also more likely to order unnecessary exams (exposing patients to unnecessary radiation/contrast reactions/renal failure) if they know they will profit from the referral (otherwise known as self-referral).

medicare has begun to address these issues. reimbursement for the technical component of radiologic exams (fee for performing/supervising the exam) has been slashed under the DRA. the orders of scanners by clinicians have dropped significantly in the past 2-3 months as reported in recent industry news stories. there are stories of groups trying to sell their $2 million 64-slice ct scanners because profit margins for self-referral have decreased and will continue to decrease under current medicare proposals.

maryland has recently passed a law that makes it illegal for clinicians to buy ct and mr scanners to scan their own patients for profit. medicare has recently introduced new rules that make self-referral more difficult. insurance companies in places like pennsylvania have developed
credential programs to curb expensive self-referral.

also your claims about clinicians taking over various parts of radiology is absurd. the majority of cardiac CT/MRI exams, which are technically difficult to perform and interpret, are performed by radiologists (according to medicare statistics). at our institution all cardiac ct and mr is performed and interpreted by radiologists. nearly 100% of neuroradiologic studies in the us are interpreted by radiologists.

it makes sense to have people whose medical training is devoted to performing and interpreting radiologic exams (i.e. radiologists) interpret radiologic exams.

there are some cardiologist who are trying to get into the cardiac ct business but they have to pay radiologists to interpret the rest of the chest-as cardiac ct is an exam of the entire chest (lungs, mediastinum and sometimes upper abdomen). these arrangements will soon be illegal under medicare guidelines because legally only one physician can bill for the professional component of the exam. there are already anecdotes of cardiologists not following up on a radiologist's over-read reports of a small pulmonary abnormality...patients developing lung cancer and suing the responsible cardiologist.

likewise ct colonography is a exam not just of the colon but the entire abdomen. a physician missing any life-threatening finding in a radiologic study of the chest, abdomen, pelvis (cancer, vascular lesions, infections...) is just as liable in a court of law as a radiologist (probably more so, because they are practicing outside the scope of their training---in most instances for profit).

i don't think ct colonography will have a negative impact on gi. if anything more people will be screened resulting in more referrals for polypectomy to gi.
 
All of you are also missing the psychological factor. Let's be honest, aside from the Radiologists here, how many of you would genuinely seek a CT versus a colonoscopy when getting screened. I know radiologists are brilliant but I'm sorry, I would feel much more at ease having a clean result after being scoped by a GI doc sticking a scope in me and seeing my colon in high resolution versus a radiologist looking for some specks on a black and white CT. I just wouldn't want to take that chance. I know we use CT's regularly but the point is if I'm given the option of having my colon actually seen versus indirectly viewed, which of these procedures would you elect to receive? Maybe some patients who are absolutely against an invasive procedure will opt for the VCT and that's fine but I know I'm not the only one who feels the same way I do.
 
All of you are also missing the psychological factor. Let's be honest, aside from the Radiologists here, how many of you would genuinely seek a CT versus a colonoscopy when getting screened. I know radiologists are brilliant but I'm sorry, I would feel much more at ease having a clean result after being scoped by a GI doc sticking a scope in me and seeing my colon in high resolution versus a radiologist looking for some specks on a black and white CT. I just wouldn't want to take that chance. I know we use CT's regularly but the point is if I'm given the option of having my colon actually seen versus indirectly viewed, which of these procedures would you elect to receive? Maybe some patients who are absolutely against an invasive procedure will opt for the VCT and that's fine but I know I'm not the only one who feels the same way I do.

well, you're an educated medical student. I personally agree with you. If I was around fifty today and had my choice between the two options, I'd just go ahead and opt for the full colonoscopy and cut out the middle man.

However, as others have stated, there are a LOT of people who don't get colonoscopies simply because they don't like having something in their butt and no other good reason beyond that and it doesn't even matter how good their PCP is at explaining the risk, no way no how they won't do it. These people still care about not getting cancer, so they'll probably jump at the Virtual Colonoscopy. And as soon as somebody can slap up a CT and say "You see this thing here? That might grow into cancer" that'll hopefully be enough of an incentive to go in and get the colonoscopy. It's a win win.
 
A few things about this whole debate:

1. What happens when the colon capsule is perfected? No radiation, no rectal insufflation, direct visualization of other colonic (and possibly SB) pathologies (AVMS, ulcers, etc.)?

2. If VC becomes the preferred modality, GI docs will still be very busy with polypectomies!

3. If patients have diarrhea, constipation, FOB+, or abd pain- then OC might still be your first modality. Additionally, high risk groups (polyposis, IBD) are still going to get OC first line.

4. People will invest millions in CT scanners and same-day VC/OC centers and then MR colography will come along.

BTW, can anybody ballpark the risks associated with the radiation exposure given to an average risk person who gets their first VC at age 50 and then every 5 years thereafter (until 80)? How about if 100% of the US population got their VC at age 50 and then every 5-10 years thereafter. Not trying to be negative, just curious if that data is out there!
 
A few things about this whole debate:

1. What happens when the colon capsule is perfected? No radiation, no rectal insufflation, direct visualization of other colonic (and possibly SB) pathologies (AVMS, ulcers, etc.)?

I just saw this demo'd for the first time. The one thing I didn't like was the way the patient has to keep the prep going all day to get the capsule through. They need to find a good colonic promotility med thats still on the market.
 
Interesting discussion.

The radiation risk is negligible. 6 additional CTs (first at 50, then q5 years until 75) isn't going to increase the risk of second malignancy noticeably. At the doses given for definitive treatments for malignancy, the risk is estimated to be 1/1000 to 1/10000 over 5-30 years. At the dose of diagnostic CT scans, shouldn't be an issue (<1% of a definitive dose) ...

Even as an educated medical professional, I'd rather not have something up my anus if another non-invasive modality was found to be equivalent or close. Just my own personal reference. That study was crap, though ... NEJM will publish any study that shows cost savings, even if it is garbage.

-S
 
My 2 cents:
Let's get to the core of the matter: screening and cost savings..now, i'm a gi fellow and feel that the detection rate of dangerous polyps is high enough on CT..but that's not the problem with CT:
-if on a colonoscopy I see no large polps but remove 3 small polyps, let's say 0.4-0.5mm, i have very good evidence that I can wait 10 years before rescoping without increasing the risk of colon cancer in that individual...how long can i wait for repeat CT colonography in the above case... 1 year, 2 years, 5 years, 10 years??..how much would this cost..if we decide to scope right away, how much does this add to the cost for the average screening program...how much would this cost??..remember a barium enema has a sensitivity for polyps >1.0cmm of greater than 90%..colon cancer screening is full of medico-legal sequeulae, how long before a radiologist / gp gets sued with ct colonography..not long...remember if ct is primary screening tool the radiologist has to state when the next one needs to be done, and this is the problem..
 
This discussion is intersting. I just finished my fellowship and am in private practice, and I'm not worried about CT at least for a while.

I am not worried yet because
1) radiologists are so busy already that many won't have time to learn CTC, or they won't want too
2) radiologists who do these tests will then have to carry a pager and answer prep questions (oh, I vomited the prep now what do I do?). In addition they won't want to address post procedure issues...pain, bloating, etc.
3) The study was from ONE specialized center....our community radiologists cannot even read a standard CT scan correctly!! As evidenced for the colon referral I got cuz the CT showed a "rectal mass" in a 45 yo female. I scoped and found no such mass and on interview she sounded quite constipated!!
She was literally CRYING when I told her she didn't have cancer.
4) CTC is years away from mainstream
5) Buy a scanner, read the colon yourself GI docs....then electronically send out the rest of the CT for a read by the lowest bidder...even NIGHTHAWK or INDIA!! This is not a violation of Stark Law--or speak with radioligists and invest in a scanner you read the colon they read the other part
6) FLAT POLYPS
7) All these patiens with a FH of polyps will straight to colonsocopy anyway

I find all these Busch League general surgeons trying to do scopes much more annoying than the CTC thing. I was recently asked by a general surgeon if "you have a tech hold and push the scope for you too!!"
Like I said, Busch League.
 
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