Residency Prestige vs competitveness to match

[Obama123]

---

Members do not see this ad.

There seems to be a difference between the "prestige" of a program vs how hard it is to get in. I wanted to see what current or past residents thought. Is this really true?

Would Cali programs like UCLA, UCSD, USC? or NY programs like cornell and columbia be harder to match into then prestigious programs like john hopkins, MIR, or Michigan?

Thanks!

 

[shark2000]

Location always plays a very important role.

Also being a prestigious university or even medical school is not equal to being a prestigious radiology program. Yale is an extremely prestigious university its for law school and a very good medical school. However, its radiology department is not considered top notch.

MIR is one of the best radiology departments but much easier than a lot of coastal programs to match.

Honestly, I don't know what is your exact question. It is very clear that someone with a well established life and network in LA who has lived all his life in SoCal is going to choose UCLA over MIR unless he wants to move to a different part of country.

When it comes to job placement in LA, a graduate of USC or UCLA has a significant edge over a graduate of MIR or UMich. Take a look at other post. This topic has been beaten to death.

 

[Obama123]

Appreciate the response.

 

[g8orlife]

Asp posted a helpful answer to this a while back. I'll quote the posts below...
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/residency-rank.954389/

Generally location matters more than name.

For desirability / competitiveness:

T1: Top 4 Cali (Stanford, UCSF, UCLA, UCSD); Mass General
T2: Brigham; Top NY (Cornell, NYU); UW
T3: Every other decent Cali program; Top 10 programs in marginal locations (Penn, Duke, Michigan); Top Chicago (Northwestern, UChicago); UTSW; BID
T4: Hopkins, MIR, Mayo, Wake Forest and pretty much any other academic powerhouse in less desirable locations; rest of Cali
T5: Big city academic program in rest of country = community program in NY (at least the ones that aren't consistently on the probation list), Chicago, Boston
T6: Academic program in fly-over land = community program in other big cities not aforementioned
T7: Community program in fly-over land

Anything T1-T5 is fine. Arguably some of the less desirable locations are more livable on a resident's salary. For some the star locations (SF, NY) are worth it; for many, not.

T6 is marginal. At T7 I would only do radiology if you truly love it. You will likely be training with many IMGs and have difficulty competing for the best fellowships and jobs.

I tried to be nationally objective but really there are people who would place any Cali program as high as tier 2. People in this state are bat **** insane about staying here.

 

[Radiologyreviews2015]

Location always plays a very important role.

Also being a prestigious university or even medical school is not equal to being a prestigious radiology program. Yale is an extremely prestigious university its for law school and a very good medical school. However, its radiology department is not considered top notch.

MIR is one of the best radiology departments but much easier than a lot of coastal programs to match.

Honestly, I don't know what is your exact question. It is very clear that someone with a well established life and network in LA who has lived all his life in SoCal is going to choose UCLA over MIR unless he wants to move to a different part of country.

When it comes to job placement in LA, a graduate of USC or UCLA has a significant edge over a graduate of MIR or UMich. Take a look at other post. This topic has been beaten to death.

Why is Yale not considered top notch? Not arguing your point, just curious. I interviewed there and really liked it, minus the New Haven factor.

 

[chronicidal]

Why is Yale not considered top notch? Not arguing your point, just curious. I interviewed there and really liked it, minus the New Haven factor.

Did you consider the people top notch?

 

[Radiologyreviews2015]

Did you consider the people top notch?

Personally didn't think the people were that different than other top (10) places I've been to. One of my interviewers seemed to be a big deal in radiology, for whatever that's worth. Are these rankings based on research productivity the way medical school rankings are?

To be honest I'll probably rank them 3-5 because of location, just wanted to understand if there's something negative that everyone else knows that I'm missing.

 

[deleted564680]

I think by "people" he meant the current residents, but I'm not always a fan of judging a place's greatness based upon the residents that are there. But, to be fair that's probably because I'm a D.O. and there's a lot of the "well that place can't be good, there's D.O.s there" attitude going around.

As far as your question, I thought Yale was a great program when I interviewed there. It was not a personal fit for me but I could see how others would like it.

 

[shark2000]

Why is Yale not considered top notch? Not arguing your point, just curious. I interviewed there and really liked it, minus the New Haven factor.

I don't say your are going wrong with Yale. But it is not on par with Yale name and is definitely not at same level of big Boston or NY programs.

Yale is not a powerhouse for anything in radiology. Its IR is a very good department but still not a top program.

I don't know any big name radiologist at Yale similar to Resnick@ UCSD or Yousem@ Hopkins.

 

[Radiologyreviews2015]

Yale is not a powerhouse for anything in radiology. Its IR is a very good department but still not a top program.

VIR division faculty listing: http://radiology.yale.edu/people/vascular.aspx
includes
a "medical school recruit" whatever that means
a DO
a vascular surgeon
a nurse practitioner
a physician assistant
a genetic counselor
a professor emeritus
one endowed professor, the chief
2 associate professors
a handful of non-track (clinician, instructor) faculty
6 assistant professors (who may or may not be non-track)

 

[shark2000]

VIR division faculty listing: http://radiology.yale.edu/people/vascular.aspx
includes
a "medical school recruit" whatever that means
a DO
a vascular surgeon
a nurse practitioner
a physician assistant
a genetic counselor
a professor emeritus
one endowed professor, the chief
2 associate professors
a handful of non-track (clinician, instructor) faculty
6 assistant professors (who may or may not be non-track)

What does that mean and what does that prove?

Don't get me wrong. It is a very good program. But don't think it is "Yale", similar to its law school or even some of its other medical specialties.

As a private practice radiologist who is involved in recruitment, if someone comes to my practice in west coast from east coast, I either accept someone whom I know or someone who comes from Hopkins or Harvard name or someone who comes from some top notch fellowships like MSK @ HSS or TJ, Pediatrics at CHOP or Cincinnati or mammo at MSKCC. Yale is not among them. If you want to stay in east coast, the graduates of Boston and NYC programs will have a (much) better chance to land a job in Boston and NYC respectively. Your best chance will be in CT. Like it or not nobody in NE will be impressed by Yale name in radiology. My 2 cents.

Anyway, I don't see any point in continuing this conversation. If you like this program, go for it. You don't need to prove it to me.

 

[Radiologyreviews2015]

As a private practice radiologist who is involved in recruitment, if someone comes to my practice in west coast from east coast, I either accept someone whom I know or someone who comes from Hopkins or Harvard name or someone who comes from some top notch fellowships like MSK @ HSS or TJ, Pediatrics at CHOP or Cincinnati or mammo at MSKCC. Yale is not among them. If you want to stay in east coast, the graduates of Boston and NYC programs will have a (much) better chance to land a job in Boston and NYC respectively. Your best chance will be in CT. Like it or not nobody in NE will be impressed by Yale name in radiology. My 2 cents.

Appreciate your input on this part. Would coming from a top 10 residency program be beneficial, or is the benefit limited to Harvard/Hopkins top 3-5 programs? Not really sure where I want to practice and trying to keep geographic options open.

 

[g8orlife]

Appreciate your input on this part. Would coming from a top 10 residency program be beneficial, or is the benefit limited to Harvard/Hopkins top 3-5 programs? Not really sure where I want to practice and trying to keep geographic options open.

As shark mentioned above, the topic has been beaten to death on SDN. Do SDN searches and you'll find tons of threads on this topic.
For example, Shark has stated in the past:

The discussion about ranking of programs is very very controversial. If you look for pp job, UTSW works better for getting a pp job in Texas than MGH. For pp, the key is to go to the one of the well known local university programs and makes connections. Now, personally I don't put UTSW over MGH or Stanford, even if I want to go to pp in Texas. But that's only me. If you are looking for academic job, name always matter. Academic places always love graduates of MGH or Hopkins or Stanford or UCSF.

Choosing a program is a very challenging decision esp if you have a family. It also has a huge impact on the location that you will eventually settle. Most people will eventually get a job and live in the place that they do their training. May seem a little weird. But after spending 5-6 years in a location you will like it. And 6 years from now moving will be a challenge for you, esp if your spouse is working and your children are going to school. I went to a so called top program and many residents came there because of the name brand. Some who did not like the location at first eventually ended up staying and are now working in this area.

The morale of story is to find a location that you'd like to live in the future. Then try to match into the best university program in that location. If you don't have any preference (I am pretty sure that everybody has some sort of preference, but anyway ) or you want to work in academics in the future, choose the most prestigious program that you can match into.

Source: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/stanford-vs-mgh.1046483/

 

[g8orlife]

Also, even in this thread (post #2), Shark already answered your question pertaining to other top 10 programs vs local programs. Here:

When it comes to job placement in LA, a graduate of USC or UCLA has a significant edge over a graduate of MIR or UMich. Take a look at other post. This topic has been beaten to death.

 

[Radiologyreviews2015]

Also, even in this thread (post #2), Shark already answered your question pertaining to other top 10 programs vs local programs. Here:

Thanks guys! Sorry, should have done a search as I was interested in his perspective in particular.

 

[preDoGuy24]

Am I the only one that finds it hilarious when medical students continually ask if there is a benefit to going to a top ten program? I can't really believe this is a real concern for people.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[DrBowtie]

Am I the only one that finds it hilarious when medical students continually ask if there is a benefit to going to a top ten program? I can't really believe this is a real concern for people.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

In a tight job market, connections trump prestige, particularly in different regions.

 

[preDoGuy24]

In a tight job market, connections trump prestige, particularly in different regions.

I understand that, my point being debating job prospects between a top 5 vs top 10 program is idiotic. Going with UCSF over MGH based on some rank list on the Internet is a really terrible way to rank programs. I've never heard someone say 'I really want to work in Texas so I'm ranking Hopkins first'.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[HandOfMrsRoentgen]

I understand that, my point being debating job prospects between a top 5 vs top 10 program is idiotic. Going with UCSF over MGH based on some rank list on the Internet is a really terrible way to rank programs. I've never heard someone say 'I really want to work in Texas so I'm ranking Hopkins first'.

That would be idiotic only because they are both programs in the same league. The typical scenario where this is an issue is when people are debating a strong academic program in a less desirable location vs. a community/weaker program in their desired location. The decision between the diversity of cases at a tertiary referral center, having internal fellowships, sub-specialty faculty, and a leg up for academics vs. making job-related connections and living where one wants for four years is non-trivial.

 

[preDoGuy24]

That would be idiotic only because they are both programs in the same league. The typical scenario where this is an issue is when people are debating a strong academic program in a less desirable location vs. a community/weaker program in their desired location. The decision between the diversity of cases at a tertiary referral center, having internal fellowships, sub-specialty faculty, and a leg up for academics vs. making job-related connections and living where one wants for four years is non-trivial.

That's not my point nor what is being asked about in this thread. What you are implying is a pretty typical debate (better program vs better location). If someone is making a decision on what program to go to solely on rank (whatever that even means) they are doing themselves a disservice. Speculating on the job prospects of a top 5 vs top 10 program implies a lack of insight into the big picture, I see and hear this from a LOT of medical students who seem to have a predilection for ranking things.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[chronicidal]

Speculating on the job prospects of a top 5 vs top 10 program implies a lack of insight into the big picture, I see and hear this from a LOT of medical students who seem to have a predilection for ranking things.

All medical students will rank programs in the Match. You can either "go with your gut" or seek more information to discriminate between similar programs in a concrete way.

 

[Shipping News]

All medical students will rank programs in the Match. You can either "go with your gut" or seek more information to discriminate between similar programs in a concrete way.

How's your list shaping up, Big C? Going East Coast, West Coast, Midwest, South?

 

[chronicidal]

How's your list shaping up, Big C? Going East Coast, West Coast, Midwest, South?

We're all over the place.

 

[Shipping News]

It's good to have options. Seems like the bulk of the biggies are represented on that map. Good job.