Just wondering, if im attending a state med school and do a PhD in an area of interest in neuroscience, graudate AOA and get a 240+ on the step is it possible for admittance into a top residency program? Im interested in neurology but academic research so the quality of the residency program is important for me. Can I accomplish this or is there an incredibly strong preference for higher ranked research institutions?
state med school to top medical residency programs? is this possible?
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while nothing is ever guaranteed, with those stats you could go anywhere as long as you weren't an ass in your interview.
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Yes this is definitely possible! i did it... even without the PhD...
thats super awesome! can you tell me where you went by PM? I also have a few more questions for you...if I want to do research is going to a top 5 program really critical? I mean i know that you can make for yourself anywhere if you work hard, but of course going to an excellent program can only help in research. whats your take on that? also, can you practice medicine and do research?
Don't forget that many of the top academic neurology residency programs ARE located at state schools. UCSF is an example. UCLA and Michigan are others, among many. The key is the quality of the institution and the work that goes on there, not "public" vs. "private."
I can't vouch for every admission officer out there, but if you are exceptional you will do well in all walks of life regardless of where you pick up your skills. If you have some big name on your diplomas all the better.
I would also strongly advise not going after a PhD unless you feel really strongly about research. Its not worth it just to try to match somewhere super competitive. Work hard and all that other stuff turns out fine.
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What if he wants to be an ass in his interview? What Step score should he shoot for then? 😛
not funny.
but seriously, i want to do research, hence my interest in a PhD and not because i want to get into the best program.
the reason I am so interested in name programs is because I understand one needs admissions into a well regarded one to gain access to research, PIs, training, etc. and that it is hard otherwise without the proper credentials. as a result I already feel that I would be at a disadvantage by going to a state school(which is nowhere near what michigan or UCSF are...its an unranked state school).
Surag-It is good you are thinking about some of these things early.
Step 1 is to decide MD vs. PhD vs. MD-PhD. I wouldn't even think about neurology residency etc. at the moment since that is subject to change, is a long ways off, and will just muddle the main question at hand.
Take some time and figure out what kind of research you want to do. It sounds like you have some ideas. If you are inclined toward basic science you will want a PhD or MD-PhD. A PhD is much, much faster but carries significant risk in terms of future employment and potential income. If you don't quickly get the pubs and grants your career as a leading scientist is over. An MD-PhD on the other hand is a very long road and forces you to try to juggle two things for much of your training, but gives you a lot of options.
While I know many outstanding MD-only scientists, in this day and age of debt and numerous other barriers in clinical education it is very hard to go into basic science with just an MD. Doing science as an MD-only usually entails an extended research fellowship or post-doc after residency. Residency is a time for clinical training, and any research you do will just be getting your feet wet unless you have significant prior experience. When it comes to basic science, as you may know, it can take many years to gather enough data to publish a high profile story. Even at heavily research oriented residencies (Hopkins, UCSF, Partners, UCLA, Wash U to name a few of many), as it stands now you will have a maximum of 6-12 months over 4 years you can solely dedicate to basic science work. At many programs, protected research time is only a couple months.
This MD-only route to being a physician scientist is possible, but you will basically be starting from square one in a new "profession" (basic science) in your late 20's and early 30's when your PhD peers are in some cases already tenured professors and your MD friends are starting to make some serious money for their families. Meanwhile your hard won clinical skills atrophy and your debt goes through the roof.
If you want clinical research, then MD, MD-PhD, or PhD in clinical research are all options. MD is maybe the best combination of employment options and speed.
Lastly try to find a mentor at or near your undergrad school regarding these issues. Also, try to avoid the hype of getting into medical school." For many college students the thought of getting an MD sounds a lot more prestigious and exciting than going to grad school. I think this draws some students into medicine that might be better off getting a PhD or going into some other profession. The excitement of becoming a medical student wears off (rather fast I might add, just like becoming a resident lol), and if you mostly want to do research you may not be happy getting an MD and focusing on clinical training for 4-10 years (at huge financial cost).
Once you figure out which degree is best for you everything else will work out. I grappled with some similar issues at one time or another and am very glad I ended up with an MD-PhD. The choice is definitely not for everyone however.
wow...that was amazing. i greatly appreciate it!
my biggest fear is that if I do research and I dont amount to anything then I will have made a big mistake/waste of time sort of fear...I dont know if thats an appropriate thought process to go through...
i.e. if you're even contemplating success in research or fear not doing particularly well then research is not for you.
but the thing is, i love the human brain...unfortunately leading a career in neurosurgery-high paying but long road job would not be as fullfilling as a researcher( i worked for one...he was barely involved in research even though he knew a lot-i.e. got most of his experience from residency and thats it)
so my question is...should i even bother when i know the chances of success is so remote? should I just go for the MD, work my ass off and go for a higher paying field/doing something that i may enjoy just as much as research but is more financially rewarding?
Just to add a different perspective.
I did a PhD and while I enjoyed my experience, I wouldn't necessarily say that it was really necessary to be able to do science. I know some MDs who took a year off to do the HHMI scholarship and got good research experience without having to jump through the hoops of qualifying exams and thesis writing.
The other point is that you don't necessarily have to go to a Hopkins or Partners to be successful in science as an MD. There's a lot of interesting science going on all over the place. If your goal is to win a Nobel prize and become editor of a big name journal, then pedigree can be helpful. But if you're just interested in science, you could probably arrange to do something interesting at almost any residency. So you don't have to think that if you don't get into a top tier residency, your research career is over.
I did a PhD and while I enjoyed my experience, I wouldn't necessarily say that it was really necessary to be able to do science. I know some MDs who took a year off to do the HHMI scholarship and got good research experience without having to jump through the hoops of qualifying exams and thesis writing.
The other point is that you don't necessarily have to go to a Hopkins or Partners to be successful in science as an MD. There's a lot of interesting science going on all over the place. If your goal is to win a Nobel prize and become editor of a big name journal, then pedigree can be helpful. But if you're just interested in science, you could probably arrange to do something interesting at almost any residency. So you don't have to think that if you don't get into a top tier residency, your research career is over.
I agree that having the letters PhD after your name is not required to do science. Heck no degree at all is needed if you have a knack for it and pick up the skills you need.
I do think that going through medical school, and then 4-6 years of residency/fellowship is a lot of time to pass before starting to hone your research skills in a post-doc or later in a fellowship. The bits and pieces of time you have to do bench research in med school and during residency probably won't be enough experience for most people to start up their own lab. Even 1-2 years of time off doing a Doris Duke or HHMI fellowship is a very brief period when trying to develop a high profile/meaningful story. These brief 1 year experiences are more geared at exploring your interests and seeing if you want to do science down the road. They might also generate some preliminary data for future work.
Add to that the large debt burden that many MDs face and MD only basic scientists are increasingly uncommon these days. But uncommon does not=impossible. I know several young scientists that are MDs. Doors are always open for people willing to put forth the time/effort.
what are the salaries of neurologists? how stable are their jobs? if you say do research/practice as a neurologist, and your research fails does that mean hospitals/research institutes show you the door?
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Doctors have relatively stable jobs, compared to many other sectors of the economy. Salaries are all over the place, although academics tend to get paid less, because they bill less.
NIH money is a pyramid. Its not that hard to get in at the bottom, but only the strong survive. This is as true at Harvard as it is at Wahoo Technical College. Your department is not a charity. If you are an MD neurologist and your R01s all run out, then you need to fish or cut bait. Either you get funded, or you start billing clinically in such a way as to justify your salary.
You should get an advisor. These are basic questions, and you should know the answers to them before you make serious career decisions.