Too many radiologists?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

qwerty89

Full Member
15+ Year Member
Joined
Jun 7, 2010
Messages
677
Reaction score
880
A common complaint on these boards is that we train too many radiologists per year. However when I looked at the Match data from 2009-2013 I noticed that the # of radiology residency positions has remained relatively flat compared to other specialties. I know that the overall number may still be too high but at least its not worsening.

Derm went from 28 PGY1 and 310 PGY2 in 2009 (338 total) to 38 PGY1 and 369 PGY2 in 2013 (407 total). 20.4% increase

Anesthesia went from 733 PGY1 and 641 PGY2 in 2009 (1374 total) to 580 PGY1 and 1073 PGY2 in 2013 (1653 total). 20.3% increase

EM went from 1472 PGY1 and 43 PGY2 in 2009 (1515 total) to 1744 PGY1 and 0 PGY2 in 2013 (1744 total). 15.1% increase.

Rads went from 151 PGY1 and 944 PGY2 in 2009 (1095 total) to 164 PGY1 and 979 PGY2 in 2013 (1143 total). 4.3% increase.

Source: http://b83c73bcf0e7ca356c80-e8560f4...ontent/uploads/2013/08/resultsanddata2013.pdf
Table 3: Positions offered in the Matching Program, 2009-2013.
 
The radiology job market crashed around 2009. The number of radiology residency positions being flat since then is in response to that, not just a coincidence. The current number of radiology spots is in response to the boom market for radiologists in the early 2000s and is not sustainable. Would be more telling to look at the rate of growth in positions in the first part of that decade.
 
Last edited:
I would really recommend taking a hard look at this before you find yourself in a position of thinking about switching specialties a couple years in.
 
I disagree that it is a dying specialty.
I will agree, though, that the days of making 500K+ on the reg are probably over. And I'm cool with that.

There are plenty of other 'specialties' that exist with a ton of FMGs filling up the spots. (IM, peds, FP, etc...)
 
I disagree that it is a dying specialty.
I will agree, though, that the days of making 500K+ on the reg are probably over. And I'm cool with that.

There are plenty of other 'specialties' that exist with a ton of FMGs filling up the spots. (IM, peds, FP, etc...)

By dying, I don't mean imaging is going away. There will always be radiology. By dying, I mean a stagnant job market where you will not get a job in a location you want to live and you may make less than what other 3 yr residencies make. You don't have to agree, but as a resident, I know fellows who graduated from my program last year are not finding jobs currently.

Further, there are telerads companies who pay Indian radiologist little money to make prelim reads and a ABR certified rad signs it off with a cursory look (that's legal cause the final read is made by the US board certified radiologist)

Foreign radiologists are also allowed to do 4 fellowships (which are plentiful and easily gotten since they're basically indentured servitude) and get board certified - you don't find that in other specialties.

Do you own research. Many radiology residents care more about income, lifestyle, location than just the specialty. If you're not one of those who absolutely can't do anything else but radiology, be prepared to sacrifice lifestyle and location. But if you can do something else and be happy, that is the right way to go right now. Since medicare will continue to cut reimbursement for imaging, and that will only lower salaries and make the job market even worse than it currently is.
 
Interesting.

What do you guys think about Anesthesia? 20% increase in just a few years. Potential for increasing CRNA utilization with legislative changes. Also my understanding from reading the Anesthesia forums is that anesthesia medicare reimbursement is a much lower % of private insurance than other specialties and is therefore more susceptible to decreased income in the future.
 
I disagree that it is a dying specialty.
I will agree, though, that the days of making 500K+ on the reg are probably over. And I'm cool with that.

There are plenty of other 'specialties' that exist with a ton of FMGs filling up the spots. (IM, peds, FP, etc...)

Eh look at MGMA surveys... the AVERAGE is 515k for diagnostic rads in PP, while the 90th percentile makes 780k+
 
Eh look at MGMA surveys... the AVERAGE is 515k for diagnostic rads in PP, while the 90th percentile makes 780k+

Those surveys are very misleading. Those were true in the 2000s when radiologists profited from owning equipment, but that is over since medicare has decreased reimbursement for technical equipment fees to unsustainable elvels. But regardless, even though PP partners do make 400k+, they're not going to give up their jobs just cause new grads can't find jobs.

I know FMG go into many fields (IM, peds, etc.), but look at that link above and show me any specialty that used to be very competitive that went from filling spots with 87.4% in 2009 to 61.6% in 2013.

Anesthesia is a conundrum. Even with CRNAs, current grads are getting great jobs and the market is CURRENTLY good.
 
Those surveys are very misleading. Those were true in the 2000s when radiologists profited from owning equipment, but that is over since medicare has decreased reimbursement for technical equipment fees to unsustainable elvels. But regardless, even though PP partners do make 400k+, they're not going to give up their jobs just cause new grads can't find jobs.

I know FMG go into many fields (IM, peds, etc.), but look at that link above and show me any specialty that used to be very competitive that went from filling spots with 87.4% in 2009 to 61.6% in 2013.

Anesthesia is a conundrum. Even with CRNAs, current grads are getting great jobs and the market is CURRENTLY good.
Not so sure about the Gas market being good. Might want to meander on over to their forums. It's the same as Cards, saturated in the major markets.
 
Not so sure about the Gas market being good. Might want to meander on over to their forums. It's the same as Cards, saturated in the major markets.

Yeah, cards job market is pretty crappy unless you're heart failure, but then you're making like 250k for 7 years of training... GI, heme/onc, and pulmonary job markets are still pretty solid. Allergy depends on your own business acumen, but I know a guy in my town that came in 2.5 years ago and swept the market - pulling 1.5 mil per year. He's also a marketing whiz.
 
By dying, I don't mean imaging is going away. There will always be radiology. By dying, I mean a stagnant job market where you will not get a job in a location you want to live and you may make less than what other 3 yr residencies make. You don't have to agree, but as a resident, I know fellows who graduated from my program last year are not finding jobs currently.

Further, there are telerads companies who pay Indian radiologist little money to make prelim reads and a ABR certified rad signs it off with a cursory look (that's legal cause the final read is made by the US board certified radiologist)

Foreign radiologists are also allowed to do 4 fellowships (which are plentiful and easily gotten since they're basically indentured servitude) and get board certified - you don't find that in other specialties.

Do you own research. Many radiology residents care more about income, lifestyle, location than just the specialty. If you're not one of those who absolutely can't do anything else but radiology, be prepared to sacrifice lifestyle and location. But if you can do something else and be happy, that is the right way to go right now. Since medicare will continue to cut reimbursement for imaging, and that will only lower salaries and make the job market even worse than it currently is.

This is completely inaccurate. Apparently, you are not a radiologist or a radiology resident.

In order to be able to read for Medicare through Telerad, you have to go through hospital credentialing system, even for prelims. It takes forever and you have to be board certified. In addition, in order to finalize the report you have to be in the US land.

Most hospitals have turn around times these days. It is something like 0.5-1 hour for ED studies and a few hours for inpatient. And they ask for FINAL report in this timeline. Sooner or later, medicare will reimburse in full only for studies that are finalized within a certain timeline.

Telerad exists, but not in a way that you describe. The Telerad that you are talking about is found in women's health magazine or your local newspaper.
 
This is completely inaccurate. Apparently, you are not a radiologist or a radiology resident.

In order to be able to read for Medicare through Telerad, you have to go through hospital credentialing system, even for prelims. It takes forever and you have to be board certified. In addition, in order to finalize the report you have to be in the US land.

Most hospitals have turn around times these days. It is something like 0.5-1 hour for ED studies and a few hours for inpatient. And they ask for FINAL report in this timeline. Sooner or later, medicare will reimburse in full only for studies that are finalized within a certain timeline.

Telerad exists, but not in a way that you describe. The Telerad that you are talking about is found in women's health magazine or your local newspaper.


I am a radiology resident. Just because someone is trying to warn others about market conditions doesn't mean they're just making things up.

It was my mistake to say prelims. I meant that the foreign radiologist functions as a resident, compiling the report, which is then signed by a US board certified radiologist. This is being tested in India, and that's a fact. It's not quite significant enough to make an impact at this time.

Anesthesia's market is unpredictable due to CRNAs and the need to curb increasing healthcare costs. I'm afraid radiology will be under similar pressures. The most striking thing in that link I posted earlier is that rads was filled 88% by US grads just a few years ago and that is now 61%. Often med students know more about the market than current residents because they're researching. Usually the med students actually applying to rads haven't looked at the details.

If you just meander over to auntminnie.com and read other threads, you will find out for yourself just how poor the market is. The ABR/ACR is showing no signs of decreasing the slots and that will destroy the job market for a long time.
 
Last edited:
By dying, I don't mean imaging is going away. There will always be radiology. By dying, I mean a stagnant job market where you will not get a job in a location you want to live and you may make less than what other 3 yr residencies make. You don't have to agree, but as a resident, I know fellows who graduated from my program last year are not finding jobs currently.

Further, there are telerads companies who pay Indian radiologist little money to make prelim reads and a ABR certified rad signs it off with a cursory look (that's legal cause the final read is made by the US board certified radiologist)

Foreign radiologists are also allowed to do 4 fellowships (which are plentiful and easily gotten since they're basically indentured servitude) and get board certified - you don't find that in other specialties.

Do you own research. Many radiology residents care more about income, lifestyle, location than just the specialty. If you're not one of those who absolutely can't do anything else but radiology, be prepared to sacrifice lifestyle and location. But if you can do something else and be happy, that is the right way to go right now. Since medicare will continue to cut reimbursement for imaging, and that will only lower salaries and make the job market even worse than it currently is.

I don't say the market is good, but it is not even close to what you say. I am neither ABR nor ACR to advertise for radiology. But I want to clarify thing esp for medical students. As you said, medical students should know what they are going through.

As you mentioned, a lot of radiology residents care a lot about lifestyle, location and income. As a result, any job that has night coverage is considered a "bad job". Some people even decline jobs that have night coverage. Also any job that is outside their desirable location is considered a "bad job" and they may not take it. The same for income.

There are still decent number of jobs within 2 hours of big cities. But many of these are considered "bad jobs" for radiologists who expect to work in large cities with telerad night coverage. After all those who chose this field 6-7 years ago are expecting an 8-5 job with no nights in the middle of Manhattan that pays 400k+.

Regarding money, there has been decline in our reimbursements. However, many people compare hospitalist salary in Idaho with radiology salary in Manhattan. Even when the job market was booming, there was not a huge difference between income of specialists and hospitalist in large cities. Everybody who says something different does not know what he is talking about. For example, we were trying to obtain information about our referring physicians. Within 5 miles of our practice, there are 30 actively practicing orthopods. May be one of them is making high six figures, but definitely the average of what these 30 people make is way below the national average for orthopods. And I know because I read MRI and Xrays for many of them and I have an estimation of the number of procedures they do.

The more I read your posts, the more I come to the conclusion that you are not a radiology resident. Getting 4 fellowships in a row for an FMG is much harder than finding a residency spot. Your statement is 7 years old. In the last 3 years, fellowships for FMGs are neither plentiful nor easily gotten.

All of the people from my residency having jobs. I don't see a large number of unemployed radiologists. I don't disagree that there is relative surplus of raidologists, however the market is not what you are saying here. May be you live in a very different market than I live. I personally live in a city that is probably is one of the most difficult ones to land a job.
 
The 4 fellowships -> board certification path is closed and has been for at least a year. I was talking to the program director at my home institution. She said the change was abrupt and people were not grandfathered in. Some of the fellows had been there 3 years and now can't sit for boards.
 
Weird how, without fail, these threads always seem to crop up every year right around application/interview season.


Hmmmmmmmm......
 
Market is terrible. Our group had an opening last year and had like 50 people apply, many of whom were qualified. So you may see openings near where you want to live, but those jobs may be long shots without connections. Not to mention that terms right now are poor, approaching primary care for 1/2 the training without partnership potential in some cases. Know of a rad in our metro area who lost job due to imaging center being closed was out of work for 7 months and settled for a part time non benefit gig to stay near where he lived. Experiences may vary indifferent parts of the country, but unless you can not see yourself doing anything else, I would avoid. No not a troll or a med student matching this year.
 
Weird how, without fail, these threads always seem to crop up every year right around application/interview season.


Hmmmmmmmm......


Get over yourself. I don't care what you go into. Just trying to warn others of a bad market. If I had done as much research into the market as a student, I might have gone into a different specialty. I'm a radiology resident, even if the above posters don't believe me. There are always people who will view a situation on the optimistic side (the above poster who mentioned jobs are great just 2 hrs away from major metro cities). I'm looking over the entire situation and am pessimistic.

And don't think these show up just around match time. Maybe on SDN since M3/4s start asking and some residents bother replying. Just go over to auntminnie.com (if you're applying to radiology, you should have already heard about it) and look at the many posts about the poor market that are timed year round, not just at match time (in the general and residents sections).

And auntminnie has a much more comprehensive interview thread!
 
Last edited:
I don't say the market is good, but it is not even close to what you say. I am neither ABR nor ACR to advertise for radiology. But I want to clarify thing esp for medical students. As you said, medical students should know what they are going through.

As you mentioned, a lot of radiology residents care a lot about lifestyle, location and income. As a result, any job that has night coverage is considered a "bad job". Some people even decline jobs that have night coverage. Also any job that is outside their desirable location is considered a "bad job" and they may not take it. The same for income.

There are still decent number of jobs within 2 hours of big cities. But many of these are considered "bad jobs" for radiologists who expect to work in large cities with telerad night coverage. After all those who chose this field 6-7 years ago are expecting an 8-5 job with no nights in the middle of Manhattan that pays 400k+.

Regarding money, there has been decline in our reimbursements. However, many people compare hospitalist salary in Idaho with radiology salary in Manhattan. Even when the job market was booming, there was not a huge difference between income of specialists and hospitalist in large cities. Everybody who says something different does not know what he is talking about. For example, we were trying to obtain information about our referring physicians. Within 5 miles of our practice, there are 30 actively practicing orthopods. May be one of them is making high six figures, but definitely the average of what these 30 people make is way below the national average for orthopods. And I know because I read MRI and Xrays for many of them and I have an estimation of the number of procedures they do.

The more I read your posts, the more I come to the conclusion that you are not a radiology resident. Getting 4 fellowships in a row for an FMG is much harder than finding a residency spot. Your statement is 7 years old. In the last 3 years, fellowships for FMGs are neither plentiful nor easily gotten.

All of the people from my residency having jobs. I don't see a large number of unemployed radiologists. I don't disagree that there is relative surplus of raidologists, however the market is not what you are saying here. May be you live in a very different market than I live. I personally live in a city that is probably is one of the most difficult ones to land a job.


No one has expected an 8 - 5 job in PP rads for a long time now. You should know that if you're in the field.

I don't see how you can ignore that fact that almost 90% of rads spots went to US grads just a few years ago and now that number was 61% last year. Even if you don't believe the job market is that bad (probably because you have a job), I know personally people who are underemployed with bad jobs (all weekends for 125K, no work during the week). And even the US grads seem to have figured that out by the match statistics.

The ABR/ACR do not work for the PP radiologist. They come from academia and work to increase the supply of residents so attendings have cheap labor. They all made their money during the golden years and don't care about how their actions could harm future radiologists. Finally, I know they can't cut a giant number of spots, but they can start closing those community programs who don't fill most of their spots through the first round of ERAS and then fill through SOAP with foreign grads.
 
Last edited:
No one has expected an 8 - 5 job in PP rads for a long time now. You should know that if you're in the field.

I don't see how you can ignore that fact that almost 90% of rads spots went to US grads just a few years ago and now that number was 61% last year. Even if you don't believe the job market is that bad (probably because you have a job), I know personally people who are underemployed with bad jobs (all weekends for 125K, no work during the week). And even the US grads seem to have figured that out by the match statistics.

The ABR/ACR do not work for the PP radiologist. They come from academia and work to increase the supply of residents so attendings have cheap labor. They all made their money during the golden years and don't care about how their actions could harm future radiologists. Finally, I know they can't cut a giant number of spots, but they can start closing those community programs who don't fill most of their spots through the first round of ERAS and then fill through SOAP with foreign grads.

The number of FMGs in a field is just an echo of medical student perception of the field. This may be correct or incorrect. Most likely it is incorrect. In fact, if a medical student believe your posts, he should be stupid to go into radiology.

I still don't understand what is the intention behind these posts? You claim that you are a resident, but you don't know how radiology report works (you still think that people dictate in india) and you don't know about situation of fellowships these days.

Anyway, I am not going to argue anymore. Just my experience is different from your experience. Nobody is making 500K+ in big cities these days, but nobody is also working all weekends for 125K. Just for comparison, a lot of fellowships pay 65-70K with moonlighting opportunities and you probably can clear 100K. And you have few weekend calls and no night call.

Again, I really don't know what is your intention. But there should be good reasons, since you are really persistent in what you say.
 
The number of FMGs in a field is just an echo of medical student perception of the field. This may be correct or incorrect. Most likely it is incorrect. In fact, if a medical student believe your posts, he should be stupid to go into radiology.

I still don't understand what is the intention behind these posts? You claim that you are a resident, but you don't know how radiology report works (you still think that people dictate in india) and you don't know about situation of fellowships these days.

Anyway, I am not going to argue anymore. Just my experience is different from your experience. Nobody is making 500K+ in big cities these days, but nobody is also working all weekends for 125K. Just for comparison, a lot of fellowships pay 65-70K with moonlighting opportunities and you probably can clear 100K. And you have few weekend calls and no night call.

Again, I really don't know what is your intention. But there should be good reasons, since you are really persistent in what you say.

The number of FMGs is not a perception of med students. It is directly related to the competitiveness of the field because FMGs are the last ones considered when residencies look at applicants. A small community program in Chicago matched 1 resident, and the other two were filled by SOAP. It will ultimately be those FMGs that can't find jobs because they will be least connected, just like those poor FMGs who go into nuc med not knowing that there are exactly 0 jobs for stand alone nuc med docs. But the PDs don't care and don't want to lose the free labor, so those residents don't hear a peep about the job market until it's time to find a job.

I could tell you the names of the radiologist I know who works from Friday night to Sunday night for 125K, and I could give you the names of the residents I know who just recently (this past July) started residencies in different specialties mostly due to job market concerns. But that would not be professional and defeat the purpose of an anonymous forum.

After reading your attempts to put doubt into whether or not I'm actually a radiology resident, it sounds like maybe you're not in radiology. Telerad companies send US BC rads who want to live in foreign countries so they can work during the day for night reads in the US. While the majority of reads are not made by nonUS BC rads, there are pilot programs that allow foreign rads to analyze the images and compile the report. Then, one US BC rad signs off on those reports of multiple foreign rads and how much they go over the images is up to them since it is their name on the report. This is technically compliant with US regulations and medicare billing because the reporting physician is US ABR certified. If you look at what I said before, this is not the norm at this time.

My purpose here is to encourage those going into rads (maybe some who would be happy doing something else) to research the job market and make an educated decision.

What's your end goal here? Maybe I can just say you're the PD at one of those crappy community programs that opened up shop during the boom and don't want your spots unfilled cause then you might have to start paying for a nighthawk or cover the nights yourself? See how easy it is to start questioning random people online.

Radiology, like every other profession, is in a situation where a large number of employees if good for those who already own practices because it allows them to work new employees for little while collecting more for themselves off the work of newer employees. Then they let those associates go and never make them partner. Every group is not like this, but there are groups like that and those types of groups will increase with the number of potential radiologists increasing. Greed always wins out, especially in large metro cities. Read online about how a private practice group works. More radiologists is beneficial for established partners and academic attendings. It is terrible for residents/fellows/recent grads. Eventually, the entire specialty then stagnates like pathology, in terms of job market.

And to the med students, since I am a random online person, don't take any of what I say as truth. Ask around and make the decision yourself.

Lastly, if the ABR does cut about 200 spots, then the job market probably would open up since there are older rads expected to retire sometime before they die. But I wouldn't bet on that happening.
 
Last edited:
The number of FMGs is not a perception of med students. It is directly related to the competitiveness of the field because FMGs are the last ones considered when residencies look at applicants. A small community program in Chicago matched 1 resident, and the other two were filled by SOAP. It will ultimately be those FMGs that can't find jobs because they will be least connected, just like those poor FMGs who go into nuc med not knowing that there are exactly 0 jobs for stand alone nuc med docs. But the PDs don't care and don't want to lose the free labor, so those residents don't hear a peep about the job market until it's time to find a job.

I could tell you the names of the radiologist I know who works from Friday night to Sunday night for 125K, and I could give you the names of the residents I know who just recently (this past July) started residencies in different specialties mostly due to job market concerns. But that would not be professional and defeat the purpose of an anonymous forum.

After reading your attempts to put doubt into whether or not I'm actually a radiology resident, it sounds like maybe you're not in radiology. Telerad companies send US BC rads who want to live in foreign countries so they can work during the day for night reads in the US. While the majority of reads are not made by nonUS BC rads, there are pilot programs that allow foreign rads to analyze the images and compile the report. Then, one US BC rad signs off on those reports of multiple foreign rads and how much they go over the images is up to them since it is their name on the report. This is technically compliant with US regulations and medicare billing because the reporting physician is US ABR certified. If you look at what I said before, this is not the norm at this time.

My purpose here is to encourage those going into rads (maybe some who would be happy doing something else) to research the job market and make an educated decision.

What's your end goal here? Maybe I can just say you're the PD at one of those crappy community programs that opened up shop during the boom and don't want your spots unfilled cause then you might have to start paying for a nighthawk or cover the nights yourself? See how easy it is to start questioning random people online.

Radiology, like every other profession, is in a situation where a large number of employees if good for those who already own practices because it allows them to work new employees for little while collecting more for themselves off the work of newer employees. Then they let those associates go and never make them partner. Every group is not like this, but there are groups like that and those types of groups will increase with the number of potential radiologists increasing. Greed always wins out, especially in large metro cities. Read online about how a private practice group works. More radiologists is beneficial for established partners and academic attendings. It is terrible for residents/fellows/recent grads. Eventually, the entire specialty then stagnates like pathology, in terms of job market.

And to the med students, since I am a random online person, don't take any of what I say as truth. Ask around and make the decision yourself.

Lastly, if the ABR does cut about 200 spots, then the job market probably would open up since there are older rads expected to retire sometime before they die. But I wouldn't bet on that happening.

My experience is very different as a pp radiologist. And BTW, I don't need to read online about how pp, academics or Telerad works. I have precise internal information about each.

Anyway, you are entitled to your opinion. It seems that your experience is different from mine.

Good Luck with what you do, either as a radiologist making 125K working weekends or ....
 
It is tough to gauge as a rad resident. But online hearsy it seems that radiology market is 2nd worse in medicine after pathology. Not encouraging. The only thing I wish could be done is cutting training spots by 100 or more per year... or at least a freeze. Imaging volume balooned in the 2000's, slots were increased as a result. It is stagnating now, and will stagnate more with ACA (any increase in volume will be killed by poor reimbursement anyways).
 
My experience is very different as a pp radiologist. And BTW, I don't need to read online about how pp, academics or Telerad works. I have precise internal information about each.

Anyway, you are entitled to your opinion. It seems that your experience is different from mine.

Good Luck with what you do, either as a radiologist making 125K working weekends or ....


If you're an attending, I'm not telling you to research how groups work. That's for med students and residents to look up.

Your experience is different since you're already in PP. I'm a resident currently so what my experience and that of those who enter radiology now will definitely not be what your experience is. Some groups are not even offering partnership track positions in desirable locations. Like I said, partners are making the same amount of money they did 10 yrs ago, but reading twice the studies. New associates are not going to fare as well. Hopefully what you expect is what happens for the current residents' sake.
 
Last edited:
Pretty much every fellow I have worked with at my institution already have jobs lined up. It seems if you're a normal person with a few decent connections the market is not nearly as dismal as you guys are making it sound.
 
as someone applying this year for residencies, I would rather do no medicine than not do radiology, regardless of job market...
 
Sonofva, your tune may change if the market does not improve. Will not be fun competing with 50 others for a low paying night gig 1000 miles from home. All fellows get jobs.... But no mention of difficulty, compromise, crappy tems and how far from preferred location. After all this training and financial sacrifice, would suck to be so miserable. But unfortunately, some med students think all will work out in the end but fail to realize that there are no guarantees and what a shark pit the real world after training is.
 
Sonofva, your tune may change if the market does not improve. Will not be fun competing with 50 others for a low paying night gig 1000 miles from home. All fellows get jobs.... But no mention of difficulty, compromise, crappy tems and how far from preferred location. After all this training and financial sacrifice, would suck to be so miserable. But unfortunately, some med students think all will work out in the end but fail to realize that there are no guarantees and what a shark pit the real world after training is.

there are no guarantees in anything though. I mean who knows what the climate of MEDICINE, let alone radiology will be in 6-7 years when we are looking for jobs.
 
This and all threads like it are ridiculous. My dad has poured concrete in 100 degree weather for 35 years making $25-30,000 a year if he's lucky. We're going to make 6 figures sitting in the air conditioning doing something intellectually stimulating. So what if you have to live in a location that's not your "dream" location? At least you know that light switch is going to turn on, your fridge is going to be full, and hell, you might even get to take a vacation every now and then.

Get some perspective people.
 
This and all threads like it are ridiculous. My dad has poured concrete in 100 degree weather for 35 years making $25-30,000 a year if he's lucky. We're going to make 6 figures sitting in the air conditioning doing something intellectually stimulating. So what if you have to live in a location that's not your "dream" location? At least you know that light switch is going to turn on, your fridge is going to be full, and hell, you might even get to take a vacation every now and then.

Get some perspective people.

Agree 100%. I think our generation of students/trainees have a much healthier expectation of what our lives will be like in 8-10 years. We're not expecting the 500k/year partnerships in beautiful coastal cities that seemed to be the status quo 5 years ago. We see ourselves living a moderately comfortable lifestyle doing what we enjoy wherever we can do it. It's a complete shift from 5-10 years ago, and we are okay with it. The doom and gloom talk does nothing but make the poster look like a crying spoiled brat who didn't get the shiny new car for his/her 16th birthday.
 
This and all threads like it are ridiculous. My dad has poured concrete in 100 degree weather for 35 years making $25-30,000 a year if he's lucky. We're going to make 6 figures sitting in the air conditioning doing something intellectually stimulating. So what if you have to live in a location that's not your "dream" location? At least you know that light switch is going to turn on, your fridge is going to be full, and hell, you might even get to take a vacation every now and then.

Get some perspective people.

Before I start my post, I'm just going to say my parents made almost exactly the same as what your parents made.

The attitude displayed by your post is one of the extremes that is terrible for radiology and physicians in general. The other extreme is greed as evidenced by what cardio/gi/rads/etc did during the boom of outpatient imaging/procedures in the 2000s. Medical students should look into the jobs. Don't think people complaining about jobs are people who expect to make 500k in the middle of Manhattan. There is a significant oversupply of radiologists. After drastic reimbursement cuts, radiologists work 2x as much as they did 10 years ago for the same amount of money. If the oversupply continues, you will see newer grads underbidding existing rads just so they can get a job, since current groups are working harder to avoid lowering their salary by hiring more rads.
 
And as we continue to be under attack by NPs/PAs and medicare cuts, an oversupply has the potential to destroy the profession as it did to pathology. The cytopath fellow at my medium sized academic center is on her 3rd fellowship. We're already finding rads doing 2 fellowships.
 
Radworking.com has quite a few jobs listed....

About a 100 jobs for 1200 grads every year? ACR jobs bulletin used to have over 1000 at any time. Now it's about 200, and that's up recently from 150ish. Also, radworking posts are frequently spam from recruiters.
 
Comparing, in absolute terms, the number of ACR jobs versus the number of annual graduates is a worthless endeavor. The unadvertised market is much larger than the advertised one. Using radworking.com is even more useless, because those jobs generally stink and are not reflective of jobs the 'average radiologist' is willing to consider. Only slight less useless is comparing the number of jobs on ACR.org right now to the highs seen in the mid 2000s. That was a market unlikely to be repeated in our lifetimes and is not a reasonable basis of comparison.

Also, I'd like to hear more about how we're 'under attack' by NPs and PAs.
 
And as we continue to be under attack by NPs/PAs and medicare cuts, an oversupply has the potential to destroy the profession as it did to pathology. The cytopath fellow at my medium sized academic center is on her 3rd fellowship. We're already finding rads doing 2 fellowships.

This is not the language of a radiologist or a radiology resident. You are just copy pasting what you have read on internet.
 
About a 100 jobs for 1200 grads every year? ACR jobs bulletin used to have over 1000 at any time. Now it's about 200, and that's up recently from 150ish. Also, radworking posts are frequently spam from recruiters.


According to recent ACR/ABR article, there was 1400 job recruitments last year. This was not all for new graduates. Some of these went to more experienced rads and some were only job changes of people already in practice. But, I hope you don't say all of these job opening were in Alaska.
 
This is not the language of a radiologist or a radiology resident. You are just copy pasting what you have read on internet.


Apparently you don't want to recognize that groups hire 2 PAs or NPs to do routine IR cases instead of a full time IR doc. That practice will only increase with these so called radiology assistants and the fact that docs want to keep their salaries up in the face of declining reimbursements.

Currently there are less than 30k radiologists in total. At the rate of 1200 a year, we will have trained about 12k radiologists over 10 yrs. Do you really think that over 1/3 of current radiologists will retire over 10 years? Don't hold your breath for some massive increase in imaging since the problem in healthcare right now is too much imaging and money being spent.

But screw it, I give up. Simple math seems to elude the smartest people.
 
Currently there are less than 30k radiologists in total. At the rate of 1200 a year, we will have trained about 12k radiologists over 10 yrs. Do you really think that over 1/3 of current radiologists will retire over 10 years? Don't hold your breath for some massive increase in imaging since the problem in healthcare right now is too much imaging and money being spent.

Training spots need to be cut by 100-200 per year NOW.
 
Apparently you don't want to recognize that groups hire 2 PAs or NPs to do routine IR cases instead of a full time IR doc. That practice will only increase with these so called radiology assistants and the fact that docs want to keep their salaries up in the face of declining reimbursements.

Currently there are less than 30k radiologists in total. At the rate of 1200 a year, we will have trained about 12k radiologists over 10 yrs. Do you really think that over 1/3 of current radiologists will retire over 10 years? Don't hold your breath for some massive increase in imaging since the problem in healthcare right now is too much imaging and money being spent.

But screw it, I give up. Simple math seems to elude the smartest people.

You're the one failing at simple math. Stop thinking of everything in such static terms. In 10 years the population will be ~15% greater than it is today. The elderly will be a greater percent of the US population than it is today, therefore health care utilization per capita will be greater. Imaging is only going to become more and more important in non-invasive diagnosis.

I give up. Radiologists (and radiology residents) love to bitch and moan about how everything is horrible. You only need to spend 5 minutes reading AuntMinnie to see the field is full of chicken littles.
 
Apparently you don't want to recognize that groups hire 2 PAs or NPs to do routine IR cases instead of a full time IR doc. That practice will only increase with these so called radiology assistants and the fact that docs want to keep their salaries up in the face of declining reimbursements.

Please cite examples of these groups committing malpractice by permitting PAs or NPs to do procedures instead of an interventional radiologist.

The radiology assistant has been around for awhile - at least 10 years - but has yet to find a solid niche. The RA training pathway is by way of a radiography, which means they're largely useless in taking care of patients outside of the IR suite. To be a threat to radiologists, someone would have to go through both the PA/NP and RA pathways.
 
You're the one failing at simple math. Stop thinking of everything in such static terms. In 10 years the population will be ~15% greater than it is today. The elderly will be a greater percent of the US population than it is today, therefore health care utilization per capita will be greater. Imaging is only going to become more and more important in non-invasive diagnosis.

I give up. Radiologists (and radiology residents) love to bitch and moan about how everything is horrible. You only need to spend 5 minutes reading AuntMinnie to see the field is full of chicken littles.

It's always great when med students give attendings and residents advice about their specialty. Here's some evidence based medicine for you to look at:

http://www.imagingbiz.com/images/site/pdf/Dec_market.pdf

We can assume a career of at least 30 years (it's actually longer for radiologists since we can become part time and don't have the physical stresses that other specialists do)

so the number of radiologists is 26k, not 30k. When every 20 years we will be producing almost as many as are radiologists as we currently have, the number of exams per year will have to increase much more than 15% or whatever random number you want to make up. And that's if reimbursements don't go down and people don't start working even longer and harder.

like i said before, don't bank on imaging going up greatly since the paradigm and economic necessity is decreased spending on healthcare before it bankrupts the country.

if you're a med student, you'd be wise in the future not to act like you know so much more than those actually out of med school, when the current data actually points in the exact opposite direction of your opinions.
 
It's always great when med students give attendings and residents advice about their specialty. Here's some evidence based medicine for you to look at:

http://www.imagingbiz.com/images/site/pdf/Dec_market.pdf

We can assume a career of at least 30 years (it's actually longer for radiologists since we can become part time and don't have the physical stresses that other specialists do)

so the number of radiologists is 26k, not 30k. When every 20 years we will be producing almost as many as are radiologists as we currently have, the number of exams per year will have to increase much more than 15% or whatever random number you want to make up. And that's if reimbursements don't go down and people don't start working even longer and harder.

like i said before, don't bank on imaging going up greatly since the paradigm and economic necessity is decreased spending on healthcare before it bankrupts the country.

if you're a med student, you'd be wise in the future not to act like you know so much more than those actually out of med school, when the current data actually points in the exact opposite direction of your opinions.

Let's cut the bull****. We all know you love to complain. You've been doing it your whole life. You knew about all these reservations you've conjured long before you entered residency. Yet you went into radiology anyway. What is wrong with you? You're just as bad as the repetitve losers on Auntminnie who go on about how amazing life is as a hospitalist.
 
Let's cut the bull****. We all know you love to complain. You've been doing it your whole life. You knew about all these reservations you've conjured long before you entered residency. Yet you went into radiology anyway. What is wrong with you? You're just as bad as the repetitve losers on Auntminnie who go on about how amazing life is as a hospitalist.


Aw, you poor baby, did all that logic make you wet yourself?
 
Please cite examples of these groups committing malpractice by permitting PAs or NPs to do procedures instead of an interventional radiologist.

The radiology assistant has been around for awhile - at least 10 years - but has yet to find a solid niche. The RA training pathway is by way of a radiography, which means they're largely useless in taking care of patients outside of the IR suite. To be a threat to radiologists, someone would have to go through both the PA/NP and RA pathways.


Thread on auntminnie titled radiology assistants as providers of services. Take a look. Don't think this stuff won't spread. It's really not that hard to get ij access and make a subq tunnel. The radiology assistant pathway might not do much, but mid levels will. At my academic center, we are training a mid level to do the thyroid fna.

Now I'll wait for the posts telling me I'm probably just a janitor in a hospital who overheard a few phrases. But do me a favor and tell the posters on that forum that they're not radiologists either cause it sounds like some of them think they are.
 
Three things can improve the market long term.

1. Increasing reimbursements. Not gonna happen.

2. Decreased residency spots by 20 to 30 percent a year. Not gonna happen.

3. Private groups hiring and spreading the work around for less money per radiologist, which would still be 250-300k per year, but with a much less stressful day. I would love this and there are a few groups like this, but probably not around a large metro area, which is where I would like to live. And if groups don't hire, their salaries will be forced lower by grads who have to join corporate rads and only the MBA holders will be happy.
 
Thread on auntminnie titled radiology assistants as providers of services. Take a look. Don't think this stuff won't spread. It's really not that hard to get ij access and make a subq tunnel. The radiology assistant pathway might not do much, but mid levels will. At my academic center, we are training a mid level to do the thyroid fna.

Now I'll wait for the posts telling me I'm probably just a janitor in a hospital who overheard a few phrases. But do me a favor and tell the posters on that forum that they're not radiologists either cause it sounds like some of them think they are.

LOL. It seems like you take auntminnie as the bible. I'm not sure what your motivation is.
 
Thread on auntminnie titled radiology assistants as providers of services. Take a look. Don't think this stuff won't spread. It's really not that hard to get ij access and make a subq tunnel. The radiology assistant pathway might not do much, but mid levels will. At my academic center, we are training a mid level to do the thyroid fna.

Now I'll wait for the posts telling me I'm probably just a janitor in a hospital who overheard a few phrases. But do me a favor and tell the posters on that forum that they're not radiologists either cause it sounds like some of them think they are.

Link?

I never questioned your status as a radiology resident. Way to channel your inner butthurt, though.
 
It's always great when med students give attendings and residents advice about their specialty. Here's some evidence based medicine for you to look at:

http://www.imagingbiz.com/images/site/pdf/Dec_market.pdf

We can assume a career of at least 30 years (it's actually longer for radiologists since we can become part time and don't have the physical stresses that other specialists do)

so the number of radiologists is 26k, not 30k. When every 20 years we will be producing almost as many as are radiologists as we currently have, the number of exams per year will have to increase much more than 15% or whatever random number you want to make up. And that's if reimbursements don't go down and people don't start working even longer and harder.

like i said before, don't bank on imaging going up greatly since the paradigm and economic necessity is decreased spending on healthcare before it bankrupts the country.

if you're a med student, you'd be wise in the future not to act like you know so much more than those actually out of med school, when the current data actually points in the exact opposite direction of your opinions.

According to recent ACR/ABR article, there was 1400 job recruitment in 2012. This was not all for new graduates. Some of these went to more experienced rads and some were only job changes of people already in practice. But,not all of these job opening were in Alaska.
 
Top