True Parity

[G0dFather]

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CPMA Works With CMA and COA to Achieve M.D. License Parity​

Podiatrists, tenders of corns, bunions and other troubles of the humble foot, are classified as second-class citizens in the medical world – a rung below full-fledged M.D.s. But with the surge in people with diabetes, they're playing a particularly vital role these days in preventing amputations. And there's a move afoot to boost their official status as well. "We kind of see ourselves as the profession that keeps people walking," said Dr. Jon Hultman, executive director of the California Podiatric Medical Association. "We've evolved over the last 30 or 40 years. What hasn't changed is this limited license," Hultman said. "We're treated differently even though the way we practice is essentially the same."
Dr. Jon Hultman Podiatrists have attracted an unlikely ally in the bid to boost their status: the California Medical Association. The powerful doctors' lobbying group is notorious for its turf battles with chiropractors, nurse practitioners, and others it defines as "mid-level practitioners and other allied health professionals." But this time around, the CMA is playing the opposite role. It's teaming up with the California Podiatric Medical Association and the California Orthopaedic Association to consider putting the training of foot specialists on par with M.D. standards, according to CMA Chief Executive Officer Dustin Corcoran. The three groups are creating a task force to review the curriculum at California's two podiatry schools and, depending on the outcome, appeal jointly to the national Liaison Committee on Medical Education to reclassify the licensing for podiatrists.












Im sure you all seen this , any thoughts ?

 

[Ankle Breaker]

Let's say this works out...does this mean only podiatrists who work in CA will achieve equal parity?

 

[347932]

Let's say this works out...does this mean only podiatrists who work in CA will achieve equal parity?

Most likely yes. BUT it could pave the way...

 

[Ankle Breaker]

Most likely yes. BUT it could pave the way...

This is interesting and potentially good news. But it might not be so sweet for the podiatry schools who are not affiliated with a MD/DO institution. It's possible the CMA and COA might like Western's curric but do not like CSPM's since it is not affiliated. Does anyone think CSPM might feel pressure to change their curric if that's the case? I'm sure a lot of CA pods would love for this to go through. Wouldn't you think the CA pods might pressure CSPM to change their curric?

 

[Sig Savant]

Without having a side to side comparison of each curriculum, none of us are qualified to make that decision. Please outline where CSPM's curriculum is lacking.

 

[Ankle Breaker]

Without having a side to side comparison of each curriculum, none of us are qualified to make that decision. Please outline where CSPM's curriculum is lacking.

I wasn't making a definitive statement about anything. I'm just throwing hypothetical questions and scenarios out there for the sake of discussion.

CSPM is lacking an affiliation with a MD/DO school. This whole "parity" issue has everything to do with MD/DO not believing that our education and training is equivalent to theirs.

The schools who are not affiliated don't take classes with MD/DO students. Plus ALL podiatry students don't take the USMLE/COMLEX boards. These are major differences that MD/DO have held and continue to hold against us.

I'm just saying that after analyzing the curriculums of both Western and CSPM, the CMA and COA might change their minds about pursuing this. Or they may want to pursue this but may suggest that CSPM try to integrate with another medical school nearby. Who knows what really will happen.

 

[javajava]

Oh man this is great news

How many years would it take for their decision, I hope they go with it

 

[zane870]

Oh man this is great news

How many years would it take for their decision, I hope they go with it

We had a lecturer (a LA area Podiatrist) come to WesternU that sits on the board of the CPMA. He didn't say that there would actually be a name change (DPM to MD) but that the Podiatrist would have a plenary (unrestricted) licence instead of the current restricted. I guess a degree change may be necessary because he also talked about being able to make "lateral" moves between specialties (i.e. graduated pods can do a rads residency and a family doc can do a pod residency).

He told us this should all be sorted out in 5 years. Right now, this is California only but could be the gateway. It is an interesting time to be going to Podiatry school in California right now.🙂

 

[Ankle Breaker]

I guess a degree change may be necessary because he also talked about being able to make "lateral" moves between specialties (i.e. graduated pods can do a rads residency and a family doc can do a pod residency).

Uhhh...letting other allopathic physicians do a podiatry residency doesn't sound like a good idea to me. I have no doubt a lot of struggling family physicians would jump at the chance to do a pod residency to get out of their area of medicine. Further saturating CA with pods. This wasn't what I thought was going to occur and I don't want this to occur in other states if thats the case.

I'm pretty sure other radiologists would feel the same way about pods trying to become radiologists too.

 

[PADPM]

I believe that California did something similar to this many years ago with DOs. I'm sure I have the logistics a little inaccurate, but I believe that the DOs were offered some form of agreement to allow their degrees to be changed to MD.

If anyone knows more accurate details about what I'm talking about, please elaborate. As stated, I KNOW I don't have all the facts, but believe that there was some agreement many years ago in California with the DOs converting to an MD designation.

 

[Ankle Breaker]

I believe that California did something similar to this many years ago with DOs. I'm sure I have the logistics a little inaccurate, but I believe that the DOs were offered some form of agreement to allow their degrees to be changed to MD.

If anyone knows more accurate details about what I'm talking about, please elaborate. As stated, I KNOW I don't have all the facts, but believe that there was some agreement many years ago in California with the DOs converting to an MD designation.

I dont have all the facts either but this is a true story. MANY DOs ended up going to California and paying a small fee to change their degree from DO to MD. Osteopathic medicine took a major hit during this time and took awhile to rebound from this.

 

[zane870]

I believe that California did something similar to this many years ago with DOs. I'm sure I have the logistics a little inaccurate, but I believe that the DOs were offered some form of agreement to allow their degrees to be changed to MD.

If anyone knows more accurate details about what I'm talking about, please elaborate. As stated, I KNOW I don't have all the facts, but believe that there was some agreement many years ago in California with the DOs converting to an MD designation.

I want to say this happened in the early 80's, not sure- but yes, it did happen.

 

[janV88]

I have my doubts about being able to do medical residencies. 1) we do not take the same core rotations as MD/DO students (except WesternU who are planning to take the same 3rd rotations) 2) we do not take the USMLE or COMLEX 3) we did not go to Podiatric Medical School to do IM, EM, etc.

I also doubt that MD/DO will be able to do Pod residencies nor would we want them to...increased competition will mean a larger residency crisis. Also remember that MD's can't do DO resicencies so there's no reason to think Pod residencies will be treated differently.

The more likely situation will be is DPM's will get a less restricted OR unrestricted license in California. This means our scope of practice will be restricted by training just like any other medical specialty.

This is great news and if this passes it will pressure ALL of the schools to take more classes with MD/DO students and it can set a precedent for all other states to follow suit.

 

[javajava]

We had a lecturer (a LA area Podiatrist) come to WesternU that sits on the board of the CPMA. He didn't say that there would actually be a name change (DPM to MD) but that the Podiatrist would have a plenary (unrestricted) licence instead of the current restricted. I guess a degree change may be necessary because he also talked about being able to make "lateral" moves between specialties (i.e. graduated pods can do a rads residency and a family doc can do a pod residency).

He told us this should all be sorted out in 5 years. Right now, this is California only but could be the gateway. It is an interesting time to be going to Podiatry school in California right now.🙂

Hope it all panes out well

 

[zane870]

I have my doubts about being able to do medical residencies. 1) we do not take the same core rotations as MD/DO students (except WesternU who are planning to take the same 3rd rotations) 2) we do not take the USMLE or COMLEX 3) we did not go to Podiatric Medical School to do IM, EM, etc.

I also doubt that MD/DO will be able to do Pod residencies nor would we want them to...increased competition will mean a larger residency crisis. Also remember that MD's can't do DO resicencies so there's no reason to think Pod residencies will be treated differently.

The more likely situation will be is DPM's will get a less restricted OR unrestricted license in California. This means our scope of practice will be restricted by training just like any other medical specialty.

This is great news and if this passes it will pressure ALL of the schools to take more classes with MD/DO students and it can set a precedent for all other states to follow suit.

That's what I think will probably happen too. While I do get pretty much the same education as the DO's at Western, I don't get any OMM training which is what sets the DO's apart from the allopathic world. On the flip side, the only podiatric training they get is from cases that our podiatry faculty present in our system courses. These cases aren't exactly podiatry specific either but rather conditions FP and IM might see and the appropriate way to handle them. So as far as being able to move from pod to whatever and vice versa, I don't know if that would be the best policy.

 

[Xforward22]

Whatever happened to changing DPM to PMD (podiatric medical doctor). I saw it mentioned on here awhile ago and thought it might relate to what's going on in CA. Is that the step they are trying to make?

 

[hematosis]

here is the link to the original article.
http://www.sacbee.com/2011/06/05/3675976/foot-doctors-look-for-a-leg-up.html


This is going to be interesting. I wonder how this will work... Does this mean that only new graduates of CSPM and Western will be entitled to this "parity" or will the older graduates will be included as well. What about those podiatrist that went to school elsewhere and are now practising in california? will they be included in this change?

Its definitely nice to see the CMA and COA team up with CPMA. That's the way it should be.

 

[Sig Savant]

This is great news and if this passes it will pressure ALL of the schools to take more classes with MD/DO students and it can set a precedent for all other states to follow suit.

People keep mentioning that pod schools need to take classes with MD/DO students. How many DO schools are affiliated with MD schools? I can guarantee not all of them, as the DO schools that I'm aware of (NYCOM (http://www.nyit.edu/academics/schools/), LECOM (http://lecom.edu/college_medicine.php), PCOM (http://www.pcom.edu/Academic_Programs/Academic_Programs.html), UNECOM (http://www.une.edu/academics/programs.cfm), and Touro (http://www.touro.edu/general/graduate.asp) are all not associated with MD schools. Somehow, though, these schools still teach medicine and make doctors.

You don't need to take classes next to MD/DO students to know the same knowledge that they do. Obviously, it checks the quality of the education, but any school can have that same quality without MD/DO students sitting next to you (and hogging the professors during office hours).

 

[zane870]

People keep mentioning that pod schools need to take classes with MD/DO students. How many DO schools are affiliated with MD schools? I can guarantee not all of them, as the DO schools that I'm aware of (NYCOM (http://www.nyit.edu/academics/schools/), LECOM (http://lecom.edu/college_medicine.php), PCOM (http://www.pcom.edu/Academic_Programs/Academic_Programs.html), UNECOM (http://www.une.edu/academics/programs.cfm), and Touro (http://www.touro.edu/general/graduate.asp) are all not associated with MD schools. Somehow, though, these schools still teach medicine and make doctors.

You don't need to take classes next to MD/DO students to know the same knowledge that they do. Obviously, it checks the quality of the education, but any school can have that same quality without MD/DO students sitting next to you (and hogging the professors during office hours).

I agree and disagree with what you are saying. Yes, all schools are going to put out well educated and qualified doctors. The caveat is that if we are going to get the backing from MD/DO organizations that we likely need in order to get an unrestricted license, they have to be aware of the education level. They already know what is being taught in their own schools and know that it is to their standards as these schools have already been vetted. They aren't going to be likely to go out on a limb for an un-affiliated school in which they aren't aware of the education level being presented to the students.

Also, the last sentence perturbed me a bit. Do you have experience with happening?

 

[docdonny]

We had a lecturer (a LA area Podiatrist) come to WesternU that sits on the board of the CPMA. He didn't say that there would actually be a name change (DPM to MD) but that the Podiatrist would have a plenary (unrestricted) licence instead of the current restricted. I guess a degree change may be necessary because he also talked about being able to make "lateral" moves between specialties (i.e. graduated pods can do a rads residency and a family doc can do a pod residency).

He told us this should all be sorted out in 5 years. Right now, this is California only but could be the gateway. It is an interesting time to be going to Podiatry school in California right now.🙂

Interesting...this means that you would have to take the USMLE then which your carriculum is not geared towards. Do you think the carriculum would then change to be indentical to and MDs (geared to take the boards) and if thats the case then why not just go to medical school? I dont really understand the bolded part, could you clarify what he said. So you go to pod school to become a radiologist. If you want to become a rediologist, why not just go to medical school??? There is already so much bias in the medical fields so much so that caribb medical grads are virually shut out of top specialties like rads. The chances of a pod grad landing that residency if given the opportunity would be slim to none. I think pods play a vital and necessary role in medicine already. The article talked about revamping the education to make the degree more credible to the MD world and give you equivilency (which you sort of already are in my opinion). Saying its an intresting time to attend pod school bc you might be able to do a rads residency screams that you wanted to go to medical school all along but didnt/couldnt for whatever reason... if you wanted to go into a cards or rads or whatever speciality, you would have just gone to medical school in the first place so whats your reason for going to pod school then?? This woudl create yet another tier in the residency math that would go MD>DO>caribb>Pod bc people would go to pod school bc they didnt have the stats to get into medical school with hopes of landing a residency in XYZ, a field that has nothing to do with pods. Then you would let an MD do a pod residency??? If they wanted to do pods why not just go to a pod school, it would have been a MUCH easier road in terms of getting into school

 

[Sig Savant]

Interesting...this means that you would have to take the USMLE then which your carriculum is not geared towards. Do you think the carriculum would then change to be indentical to and MDs (geared to take the boards) and if thats the case then why not just go to medical school? I dont really understand the bolded part, could you clarify what he said. So you go to pod school to become a radiologist. If you want to become a rediologist, why not just go to medical school??? There is already so much bias in the medical fields so much so that caribb medical grads are virually shut out of top specialties like rads. The chances of a pod grad landing that residency if given the opportunity would be slim to none. I think pods play a vital and necessary role in medicine already. The article talked about revamping the education to make the degree more credible to the MD world and give you equivilency (which you sort of already are in my opinion). Saying its an intresting time to attend pod school bc you might be able to do a rads residency screams that you wanted to go to medical school all along but didnt/couldnt for whatever reason... if you wanted to go into a cards or rads or whatever speciality, you would have just gone to medical school in the first place so whats your reason for going to pod school then?? This woudl create yet another tier in the residency math that would go MD>DO>caribb>Pod bc people would go to pod school bc they didnt have the stats to get into medical school with hopes of landing a residency in XYZ, a field that has nothing to do with pods. Then you would let an MD do a pod residency??? If they wanted to do pods why not just go to a pod school, it would have been a MUCH easier road in terms of getting into school

You obviously spelled curriculum wrong on purpose, because you are a smart person and here you are right. If you want unlimited scope, go to MD/DO school. The people driving this change for an all surgical profession and parity with MD/DO are the ones with a napolean complex. If you look down on this field of podiatry so much that you need to have parity with MD/DO to feel good about yourself, then go to MD/DO school. Podiatry is its own field with its scope that treats its subset of the patients. We don't need unlimited scope, and what for, just to lose it again by specializing in foot and ankle? (Foot and ankle orthopedists have limited scope as well, all specialists do).

I don't want to do an MD/DO residency, thats why I chose to come to podiatry. Should we be viewed as equals? Yes, and largely we already are. The orthopedists of Cali view us as equals already! Few people look down on podiatry, and they are the misinformed ones or premeds and pod students. Once your white coat says Dr. Smith, your patients don't care what letters are hanging around after your name, as long as you are competent and treat them well.

 

[javajava]

I dont think at the organizations are going for a name change. Wasnt what was gonna happen was changes in licensing and perhaps some changes in law to make podiatrists and other medical doctors equal

 

[zane870]

Interesting...this means that you would have to take the USMLE then which your carriculum is not geared towards. Do you think the carriculum would then change to be indentical to and MDs (geared to take the boards) and if thats the case then why not just go to medical school? I dont really understand the bolded part, could you clarify what he said. So you go to pod school to become a radiologist. If you want to become a rediologist, why not just go to medical school??? There is already so much bias in the medical fields so much so that caribb medical grads are virually shut out of top specialties like rads. The chances of a pod grad landing that residency if given the opportunity would be slim to none. I think pods play a vital and necessary role in medicine already. The article talked about revamping the education to make the degree more credible to the MD world and give you equivilency (which you sort of already are in my opinion). Saying its an intresting time to attend pod school bc you might be able to do a rads residency screams that you wanted to go to medical school all along but didnt/couldnt for whatever reason... if you wanted to go into a cards or rads or whatever speciality, you would have just gone to medical school in the first place so whats your reason for going to pod school then?? This woudl create yet another tier in the residency math that would go MD>DO>caribb>Pod bc people would go to pod school bc they didnt have the stats to get into medical school with hopes of landing a residency in XYZ, a field that has nothing to do with pods. Then you would let an MD do a pod residency??? If they wanted to do pods why not just go to a pod school, it would have been a MUCH easier road in terms of getting into school

Whoa, whoa, whoa- You put a lot of words in my mouth with this rant. I said the possibility of lateral movement will be on the table with the rest of this. I never said I was for this and personally don't think it will happen. I also never said I was interested in changing careers to rads or any thing else- I was just trying to explain the option that is being looked at.

The plan is to move to a plenary license- whatever else comes with that is up in the air and several years out. My statement about it being an interesting time to be in a CA school had nothing to do with being able to complete a rads residency. I don't know how you connected those dots. I said it is interesting because it looks like CA will have unrestricted licensing. This means that many of the scope issues and legal barriers that currently exist will be no longer. It means being able to completely treat our patients within the limits of only our medical education and training. It means overcoming hospital privilege issues and medicaid (medi-cal) issues.

If your reading comprehension skills are as bad as you have just demonstrated here, good luck in med school- you will need it!


PS: Our curriculum at WesternU is geared towards boards and is COMPLETELY integrated with the medical school. Have a nice day.

 

[zane870]

You obviously spelled curriculum wrong on purpose, because you are a smart person and here you are right. If you want unlimited scope, go to MD/DO school. The people driving this change for an all surgical profession and parity with MD/DO are the ones with a napolean complex. If you look down on this field of podiatry so much that you need to have parity with MD/DO to feel good about yourself, then go to MD/DO school. Podiatry is its own field with its scope that treats its subset of the patients. We don't need unlimited scope, and what for, just to lose it again by specializing in foot and ankle? (Foot and ankle orthopedists have limited scope as well, all specialists do).

I don't want to do an MD/DO residency, thats why I chose to come to podiatry. Should we be viewed as equals? Yes, and largely we already are. The orthopedists of Cali view us as equals already! Few people look down on podiatry, and they are the misinformed ones or premeds and pod students. Once your white coat says Dr. Smith, your patients don't care what letters are hanging around after your name, as long as you are competent and treat them well.

Here is where you are wrong. Because of our restricted license, pods aren't allowed to directly employ PA's- only MDs/DOs can. Because of the restricted license, Pod can't employ MDs/DOs in their practice. Because of the restricted license, California Pods are cut out of Medi-Cal. Because of our restricted license in CA, a Pod can't order hamstring stretching for a patient with equinus from a PT because the hamstrings our out of our scope of practice. Because of our restricted license, a pod can't harvest a skin graft because those are typically taken from the thigh or buttock area.

The point to my initial post was express the excitement of the prospects of getting a plenary licence- not promoting the idea of lateral movement. That was more of an after thought but some of you picked up only on that part and thought that is what I was promoting.

 

[dtrack22]

The big kicker will be the USMLE.

You, as a podiatry student cannot take it. I doubt the NBME and others are going to change their current stance just for the Cali schools.

IF (and that's a HUGE if) they open it to podiatry students...well, I'll just say good luck to those who have to sit for it.

I do have some questions...

Am I the only one that thinks this whole licensure thing is about $$$ (for a state in desperate need of it) and really wouldn't change how any podiatrist in CA practices?

When they do their curriculum review will they also look at CSPM's part I board scores from last year? Or Western's attrition rate (class of 2013 at least)? Nothing wrong with either school, but those particular stats would make the CMA laugh.

Would an unrestricted license in one state force Title XIX into healthcare legislation? This one, BTW, is the only real benefit I see from all of this...if it is even possible

 

[hematosis]

The big kicker will be the USMLE.

You, as a podiatry student cannot take it. I doubt the NBME and others are going to change their current stance just for the Cali schools.

IF (and that's a HUGE if) they open it to podiatry students...well, I'll just say good luck to those who have to sit for it.

I do have some questions...

Am I the only one that thinks this whole licensure thing is about $$$ (for a state in desperate need of it) and really wouldn't change how any podiatrist in CA practices?

When they do their curriculum review will they also look at CSPM's part I board scores from last year? Or Western's attrition rate (class of 2013 at least)? Nothing wrong with either school, but those particular stats would make the CMA laugh.

Would an unrestricted license in one state force Title XIX into healthcare legislation? This one, BTW, is the only real benefit I see from all of this...if it is even possible

Yea...i figured a lot of people were going to hate on this....including students from the "almighty" DMU (the harvard of pod school).

 

[dtrack22]

Yea...i figured a lot of people were going to hate on this....including students from the "almighty" DMU (the harvard of pod school).

The IMA would look at our attrition rates, average MCAT, etc at CPMS and laugh too. There is still a big gap in entrance standards between pod school and the allo- world. If we were talking COMA (and not CMA) then I wouldn't have brought it up...

But don't think it isn't a valid and potentially important question that will be asked during this "committee review"

 

[Creflo]

You obviously spelled curriculum wrong on purpose, because you are a smart person and here you are right. If you want unlimited scope, go to MD/DO school. The people driving this change for an all surgical profession and parity with MD/DO are the ones with a napolean complex. If you look down on this field of podiatry so much that you need to have parity with MD/DO to feel good about yourself, then go to MD/DO school. Podiatry is its own field with its scope that treats its subset of the patients. We don't need unlimited scope, and what for, just to lose it again by specializing in foot and ankle? (Foot and ankle orthopedists have limited scope as well, all specialists do).

I don't want to do an MD/DO residency, thats why I chose to come to podiatry. Should we be viewed as equals? Yes, and largely we already are. The orthopedists of Cali view us as equals already! Few people look down on podiatry, and they are the misinformed ones or premeds and pod students. Once your white coat says Dr. Smith, your patients don't care what letters are hanging around after your name, as long as you are competent and treat them well.

👍

 

[deleted291400]

Western actually wants their students to take the USMLE before they graduate...even if it is just for fun...

 

[robopod97]

Western actually wants their students to take the USMLE before they graduate...even if it is just for fun...

Wanting and being given permission by USMLE are two different things.

 

[deleted291400]

All I'm saying is its a step towards parity...geez everyone is so negative on here lol

 

[fivescrew]

It would be interesting to see how many DPM's would pass the USMLE. If they did pass, maybe they should be allowed to fill other roles in health care outside of podiatry.

 

[that1guyfromFL]

Because of our restricted license, pods aren't allowed to directly employ PA's- only MDs/DOs can. Because of the restricted license, Pod can't employ MDs/DOs in their practice.... Because of our restricted license in CA, a Pod can't order hamstring stretching for a patient with equinus from a PT because the hamstrings our out of our scope of practice. Because of our restricted license, a pod can't harvest a skin graft because those are typically taken from the thigh or buttock area.

Practice in Florida. 😀

 

[Ankle Breaker]

It would be interesting to see how many DPM's would pass the USMLE. If they did pass, maybe they should be allowed to fill other roles in health care outside of podiatry.

In my opinion the only students who would be remotely prepared to take the USMLE would be students graduating from Western since they take all the necessary classes covered by the exam and they take all basic science courses with the medical students at that institution.

It would be a crapshoot for all other students from the remaining podiatry schools.

I think the APMLE should be graded instead of pass/fail so we can see the overall quality of education that podiatry students are getting in comparison to each other. That should be the first step before we ALL jump in and take the USMLE. God forbid if the majority of podiatry students failed it...that would look terrible and just give the MD/DO community more ammo to hurt our chances of true parity.

Just my two cents

 

[fivescrew]

So do you think the students who take their classes with the DO students make better Podiatrists?

Let me ask this as well to any students or practicing DPM: do you feel after you are done with podiatry school and your residency that you are proficient(with medicine and otherwise) enough to take on a internal medicine residency or practice as a general practitioner?

 

[347932]

So do you think the students who take their classes with the DO students make better Podiatrists?

Let me ask this as well to any students or practicing DPM: do you feel after you are done with podiatry school and your residency that you are proficient(with medicine and otherwise) enough to take on a internal medicine residency or practice as a general practitioner?

When I graduated, I spent my first year out of school in a Primary Podiatric Medicine Residency (which don't exist anymore). I spent that year in a large teaching hospital, and was treated as a medical intern on all my non podiatry rotations. I'm SURE that had I been given the opportunity to continue on as a family practice resident, I would have made a very competent FP Doc. That's not what I signed up for though, so it doesn't really matter, does it?

Who you take your classes with is irrelevant. What you do with the information you are expected to learn in the classroom is what really matters.

 

[Ankle Breaker]

When I graduated, I spent my first year out of school in a Primary Podiatric Medicine Residency (which don't exist anymore). I spent that year in a large teaching hospital, and was treated as a medical intern on all my non podiatry rotations. I'm SURE that had I been given the opportunity to continue on as a family practice resident, I would have made a very competent FP Doc. That's not what I signed up for though, so it doesn't really matter, does it?

Who you take your classes with is irrelevant. What you do with the information you are expected to learn in the classroom is what really matters.

All residents are treated in this manner today as well. We are talking about getting prepared for the USMLE here not the APMLE. If you are going to take the USMLE I would want to take the same courses with MD/DO students to ensure I am getting the same quality of information. All the podiatry schools adequately prepare their students for the APMLE because students from all podiatry schools pass those board exams every year.

 

[hematosis]

I don' think its going to be a matter of taking the USMLE. If anything, they might be allowed to sit for it. Remember that the Osteopaths were not required to take the USMLE when their degree was evaluated to be equivalent of the MD. They still take their COMP exam.

 

[347932]

All residents are treated in this manner today as well. We are talking about getting prepared for the USMLE here not the APMLE. If you are going to take the USMLE I would want to take the same courses with MD/DO students to ensure I am getting the same quality of information. All the podiatry schools adequately prepare their students for the APMLE because students from all podiatry schools pass those board exams every year.

I figured I answered the poster's question. He or she didn't mention the USMLE once in his or her question.

 

[fivescrew]

I figured I answered the poster's question. He or she didn't mention the USMLE once in his or her question.

You did.

I guess I don't get this parity discussion. If the training is on par with other medical schools and DPM's can practice independently what more needs to be gained? Seems to me, outside dentistry, podiatrists are the only physicians that can really claim to be expert's in their field since you beginning training for it from day one.

 

[347932]

You did.

I guess I don't get this parity discussion. If the training is on par with other medical schools and DPM's can practice independently what more needs to be gained? Seems to me, outside dentistry, podiatrists are the only physicians that can really claim to be expert's in their field since you beginning training for it from day one.

It's politics, I'm afraid.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Although this entire situation confuses me (the details seem scattered and every time I read a thread about it, someone is saying it means something different - one thread thinks all CA DPMs will become MDs; one thread thinks that DPM foot and ankle residencies will just become a ACGME subspecialty; one thread states that all DPM schools will undergo LCME review, etc), I wanted to clear up the DO -> MD California thing ...

-This actually happened in the early 1960s, not the 1980s
-What happened was the only DO school in CA at the time was changed to an MD institution (becoming UCI) and Osteopathic Medicine was no longer licensed for practice in CA
-Because of this, all DOs attended a one day seminar, paid $65 dollars, and were awarded an MD degree
-The problem was that this degree was only recognized in CA and limited the practice of those DOs who went through the exchange process
-The result was a big legal battle that actually really strengthened the DO resolve because it overturned the issue, brought Osteopathic licensing back to CA, and put a lot of 'ump' in the cause of institutions like the AOA who were battling to get DOs recognized all over in the 1960s and 1970s

As to what's happening here ... I'm still confused. Anybody who can accurately bullet point the facts - I'd greatly appreciate it.

 

[robopod97]

In my opinion the only students who would be remotely prepared to take the USMLE would be students graduating from Western since they take all the necessary classes covered by the exam and they take all basic science courses with the medical students at that institution.

It would be a crapshoot for all other students from the remaining podiatry schools.

I think the APMLE should be graded instead of pass/fail so we can see the overall quality of education that podiatry students are getting in comparison to each other. That should be the first step before we ALL jump in and take the USMLE. God forbid if the majority of podiatry students failed it...that would look terrible and just give the MD/DO community more ammo to hurt our chances of true parity.

Just my two cents

Interesting, so the program that has not completed our own accreditation process would have the only students remotely prepared to take the USMLE based on classes. Do you know anything about their grading process compared to the DO students?

 

[Ankle Breaker]

Interesting, so the program that has not completed our own accreditation process would have the only students remotely prepared to take the USMLE based on classes. Do you know anything about their grading process compared to the DO students?

Absolutely. Its not the case IF western will get accredited its simply WHEN. Their curriculum is the most similar to traditional medical school because they take every single class with the osteopathic students except for the osteopathic manipulation technique (OMT). Then they take some podiatry specific courses on top of that (biomechanics, etc). Making their curriculum the most demanding in my OPINION.

The USMLE covers topics in behavioral science which Western students are taught in their curriculum. I don't think any other podiatry school covers this course. You don't want to take a board exam not knowing a portion of the material tested by the exam. Thats a good amount of points to throw away especially if we are just looking to pass.

There are plenty of Western students on these boards to share their opinions about the school...hopefully they will chime in and share their personal feelings about how prepared they think they would be to take the USMLE.

 

[jotfinos]

The pod I shadowed was heavily involved in the push to have us taking the USMLE(or some hybrid of the exam). The last time I was in the office he had mentioned that 7 out of the 9 schools were on board.

 

[fivescrew]

Maybe I'm not understanding this correctly but I'm wondering why Western is even bothering with a separate school for DPM's when the curriculum is closely matched with the Osteopathic school. If there goal is to produce doc's with the knowledge to pass the USMLE why not have all their students just graduate with the DO?

Seems to me that this is just a money thing. For students that for one reason or another didn't get into their DO program they have this closely similar DPM program that they can get into instead which would assure that student's tuition income is being spent there.

Maybe I'm way off on my thinking, I am still new to how all this works, but this seems counterproductive to the whole profession of podiatry. You would think it would be better for podiatry to better inform the rest of the health care community on what they can do and what their place is rather than just bending and trying to fit into a MD\DO-like mold to please the others.

 

[Ankle Breaker]

Maybe I'm not understanding this correctly but I'm wondering why Western is even bothering with a separate school for DPM's when the curriculum is closely matched with the Osteopathic school. If there goal is to produce doc's with the knowledge to pass the USMLE why not have all their students just graduate with the DO?

Seems to me that this is just a money thing. For students that for one reason or another didn't get into their DO program they have this closely similar DPM program that they can get into instead which would assure that student's tuition income is being spent there.

Maybe I'm way off on my thinking, I am still new to how all this works, but this seems counterproductive to the whole profession of podiatry. You would think it would be better for podiatry to better inform the rest of the health care community on what they can do and what their place is rather than just bending and trying to fit into a MD\DO-like mold to please the others.

You are misunderstanding this. We've been annointed "not real doctors" by the MD/DO community because we don't go to medical school and don't take their board exams (USMLE/COMLEX). If we were to ever gain true parity in their eyes then we would eventually have to take more classes with the MD/DO students and eventually take their board exams. Will this make us better podiatrists? I dont think so but we will be podiatrists with a greater understanding of the basic sciences (again just my opinion).

I'm pretty sure Dr. Harkless felt podiatry students should have the same basic science knowledge as medical students and should take the USMLE therefore he created a program like Western. The only real way to be equivalent with the DO students at Western is to do basically everything they do.

Personally I feel this is great for the profession because if Western graduates prove to be the "cream of the crop", due to their overall knowledge and training, it might put pressure on the rest of the schools to have their students take more classes with medical students. DMU and AZPOD take all their first year courses with the DO students at their respective schools. Scholl takes two classes with MD students (Gross and Essentials of clinical reasoning I) in the P1 year and NOW take pathology (starting this year) and essentials of clinical reasoning II with the M2 students during the P2 year.

Some students from stand alone colleges might differ from my opinions and thats fine. BUT if we are ultimately going to move towards taking the USMLE exam (which I don't think will be happening any time soon) then I feel taking more classes with the medical students is in order.

If we never take the USMLE and keep taking the APMLE exams then I feel the way the schools are structured now is sufficient for producing competent future podiatrists. Our educational and clinical training in the foot and ankle are far above anything that any other medical school could ever teach their students. They simply don't spend the same amount of time nor attempt to go into the same depth that we do.

It boggles my mind that some orthos would have the audacity to say we don't know what we are doing when it comes to treating the foot and ankle when they damn well know they barely touched the lower extremity in gross anatomy and only got <6 months of surgical training with the foot and ankle during their ortho residency program.

 

[BioPod]

Maybe I'm not understanding this correctly but
Seems to me that this is just a money thing. For students that for one reason or another didn't get into their DO program they have this closely similar DPM program that they can get into instead which would assure that student's tuition income is being spent there.

You seem to be assuming that those students in the DPM program at WesternU are only there because they couldn't get into the DO program and DPM was their back up. I am not a student at Western so I don't know for sure, but I highly doubt that this is true. For a lot of us DPM was our first choice for various reasons.

[Edit]
Maybe I misunderstood and you're not generalizing and are speaking specifically about those that are dead set on getting into Western regardless of which degree they obtain, but even if that were the case, it'd be such a small percent that the idea of this being about money seems silly to me. I mean, there are other DO schools that will likely accept those that were rejected at Western.

 

[Sig Savant]

Maybe I'm not understanding this correctly but I'm wondering why Western is even bothering with a separate school for DPM's when the curriculum is closely matched with the Osteopathic school. If there goal is to produce doc's with the knowledge to pass the USMLE why not have all their students just graduate with the DO?

Seems to me that this is just a money thing. For students that for one reason or another didn't get into their DO program they have this closely similar DPM program that they can get into instead which would assure that student's tuition income is being spent there.

Maybe I'm way off on my thinking, I am still new to how all this works, but this seems counterproductive to the whole profession of podiatry. You would think it would be better for podiatry to better inform the rest of the health care community on what they can do and what their place is rather than just bending and trying to fit into a MD\DO-like mold to please the others.

I agree. From a money perspective, Western opened up many different types of schools, and can put them all under one roof for classes and get all that tuition money. Someone else on here mentioned this idea a while back. Unless the school was started by Dr. Harkless because he thought he could do a better job by opening a new school in a residency shortage era as opposed to revise an existing school, then I would bet the powers at western saw podiatry as an opportunity to get another specialty under the roof.

I like that Western exists, I have nothing against the school. Perhaps it will cause all schools to increase the strength of their curriculum. We'll see at Part I boards what the pass rates are.

I just hope that anyone fighting for parity isn't fighting because they feel that Podiatrists are below any other doctor. Those people will never be happy as pods, and will end up disgruntled.

The incoming generation can greatly affect what happens with this profession.

 

[air bud]

Maybe I'm not understanding this correctly but I'm wondering why Western is even bothering with a separate school for DPM's when the curriculum is closely matched with the Osteopathic school. If there goal is to produce doc's with the knowledge to pass the USMLE why not have all their students just graduate with the DO?

Seems to me that this is just a money thing. For students that for one reason or another didn't get into their DO program they have this closely similar DPM program that they can get into instead which would assure that student's tuition income is being spent there.

Maybe I'm way off on my thinking, I am still new to how all this works, but this seems counterproductive to the whole profession of podiatry. You would think it would be better for podiatry to better inform the rest of the health care community on what they can do and what their place is rather than just bending and trying to fit into a MD\DO-like mold to please the others.

Yeah, you are way off thinking. We are only talking the first 2 years, and only talking about NON-POD specific courses. You are forgetting all the podiatry specific courses as well as the clinical experiences.