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[deleted643396]

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2 of the big 3 offer 0% 5-6 year financing on pickups pretty regularly.

Yeah, I bet they do...but not for someone making 40k a year with all sorts of other debt. I’m not talking about doctors. I’m talking about the debt riddled middle class. They’re not getting those rates. Even at 0% financing, buying a vehicle that is more than your annual salary seems to be the epitome of stupid financial decisions, especially when there are more practical options out there.

 

[deleted162650]

Even at 0% financing, buying a vehicle that is more than your annual salary seems to be the epitome of stupid financial decisions, especially when there are more practical options out there.

I’ll agree with that 100%.

 

[Mikkel]

Middle class Americans aren’t buying it because they are dumb. They take on expensive debt to “buy” $60k pickup trucks they can’t afford. The point is that tax credit is there for smart middle class people who want to be good with their finances.

You say they're dumb for buying a pickup instead of a small sedan with limited power and range. Maybe they have different needs than you. And you wonder why middle class Americans despise liberal elitists?

I don't own a pickup, but I know why many people do.

Properties of a pickup:

Moving belongings between different locations without hiring movers
Hauling materials for diy projects
Mode of transporting tools and equipment for their business
Towing trailers for more equipment
Recreational camper use
Having a sense of pride in acquiring their own can-do tool
"Family" vehicle that can do everything



Properties of a Leaf:

Limited range and power for hauling anything other than passengers and small cargo
Inability to do long distance transportation without multiple long pauses for recharging
Sense of pride of going "green" even though it has no impact whatsoever on global warming

 

[Shufflin]

Middle class Americans aren’t buying it because they are dumb. They take on expensive debt to “buy” $60k pickup trucks they can’t afford. The point is that tax credit is there for smart middle class people who want to be good with their finances.

I looked into a Leaf in 2014 when it had a driving radius of a measly 75 miles. I couldn't even go from LA to San Diego. No way man.

 

[dchz]

On a conceptual level, I have a hard time with the idea that burning fossil fuels in a power plant to generate electricity, transport it great distances, charge up a not that efficient battery, and then discharge that battery to make your car go is exponentially more efficient than just burning the fossil fuel in the car directly.

Definitely understandable. Great point.

I don't have all the numbers but let me offer some rebuttal. Most modern ICE have efficient of 25-50%, I'm gonna say 35% because most cars with the 0-60 time range comparable to the Tesla is more towards the 25% end (most cars talked about in this thread gets about 17 miles per gallon if you're lucky)

According to this article, the efficiency of power plants is about 65%, 6% loss (94% efficient) in transport, the Tesla charging is about 90% efficient.

So roughly it's about .65*.94*.9 = about 54% efficient. Compared at 35% efficient for the same performance. That 20% efficiency is not achieved by modern engineering in ICE cars.

But wait, there is more. The above is assuming that gasoline grows on trees at the gas station, but the power you get to charge your Tesla is made from the coal. You're forgetting the cost of refining and transporting the gasoline. Factor that in and the difference is "Yuuuuuuge".

The difference becomes a no-brainer when, as a consumer in 2019, you don't have to buy energy made from coal burning. You can buy 100% renewable energy from wind farm, solar farm, or nuclear energy (nuclear is not renewable but it's very environmental friendly). You cannot achieve no emission from buying energy from wind farms to put in your ICE car. But you can do so with a Tesla.

 

[deleted643396]

You say they're dumb for buying a pickup instead of a small sedan with limited power and range. Maybe they have different needs than you. And you wonder why middle class Americans despise liberal elitists?

I don't own a pickup, but I know why many people do.

Properties of a pickup:

Moving belongings between different locations without hiring movers
Hauling materials for diy projects
Mode of transporting tools and equipment for their business
Towing trailers for more equipment
Recreational camper use
Having a sense of pride in acquiring their own can-do tool
"Family" vehicle that can do everything



Properties of a Leaf:

Limited range and power for hauling anything other than passengers and small cargo
Inability to do long distance transportation without multiple long pauses for recharging
Sense of pride of going "green" even though it has no impact whatsoever on global warming

Man, you are talking in circles.

Oh, the better option is ALWAYS to buy used. Don’t get me wrong, buying a used car is probably the most environmentally conscious thing to do. Drive a car into the ground. Sorry, you cannot convince me that anyone needs to buy a new $60k pickup truck. However, for the middle class urban dweller who needs a reliable and low cost to own car for commuting, the Leaf is a great option.

The point I was making is that the government incentive is not only for rich Tesla owners. There are plenty of lower cost options that are eligible. Yet, somehow you keep turning this into something something blah blah leftists blah blah elitists blah blah Hilary blah blah.

 

[deleted50478]

2 of the big 3 offer 0% 5-6 year financing on pickups pretty regularly.

Yeah, so the financing is rolled into the purchase price. They still get an $800/mo payment for people making $4000/mo maybe less.

 

[deleted162650]

You're forgetting the cost of refining and transporting the gasoline. Factor that in and the difference is "Yuuuuuuge".

And you’re forgetting the cost of manufacturing batteries which is also very energy intensive, involves extensive mining, and may involve a good degree of human rights violations.

I do agree that having a big solar array at home to charge your EV is a pretty sweet set up.

 

[dchz]

And you’re forgetting the cost of manufacturing batteries which is also very energy intensive, involves extensive mining, and may involve a good degree of human rights violations.

Can't speak to the human rights violations. Would love some more info on that if you have it.

But the carbon emission offset of battery making (which was included in the carbon emissions of making the car) has been covered by me in this thread already.

 

[Mikkel]

The point I was making is that the government incentive is not only for rich Tesla owners. There are plenty of lower cost options that are eligible. Yet, somehow you keep turning this into something something blah blah leftists blah blah elitists blah blah Hilary blah blah.

Duh, of course the incentive applies to everyone, but most of the purchasers of electric cars are affluent, not middle class, even though cheaper options like the Leaf exist.

You think middle class people care about "global warming" when they're just trying to survive?

While you buy your third car that will be used for only commuting, they're buying/financing a multifunctional car/truck that serves all their needs.

Also, not all trucks cost $60k...

 

[pgg]

India's pollution problem is atrocious. Why isn't India's entire auto inventory just electric? They actually have pollution problems that could benefit from getting rid of diesel vehicles.

A quarter of the population in India doesn't have electricity. WTF do you think they're going to do with a bunch of electric cars? Hitch them up to donkeys?

 

[deleted162650]

But the carbon emission offset of battery making (which was included in the carbon emissions of making the car) has been covered by me in this thread already.

The figures for this are all over the map. It's easy to cherry pick your data depending on which side of the argument you're on.

Can't speak to the human rights violations. Would love some more info on that if you have it.

I don't really have the info on this (not in the market for an EV currently so haven't bothered to do any research myself). The story is however, that little African kids are basically slaves in the cobalt mines. Teslas are the new blood diamonds sorta thing.

 

[deleted162650]

WTF do you think they're going to do with a bunch of electric cars? Hitch them up to donkeys?

That's an easy way to add horsepower.

 

[pgg]

That's an easy way to add horsepower.

Maybe it's time all the cows over there started earning their keep. Buncha freeloaders.

 

[deleted643396]

And you’re forgetting the cost of manufacturing batteries which is also very energy intensive, involves extensive mining, and may involve a good degree of human rights violations.

I do agree that having a big solar array at home to charge your EV is a pretty sweet set up.

I mean oil companies aren’t exactly winning any awards from Amnesty International either.

 

[Mikkel]

A quarter of the population in India doesn't have electricity. WTF do you think they're going to do with a bunch of electric cars? Hitch them up to donkeys?

That's exactly my point. While they're burning coal and gasoline and oil and kerosene and diesel and wood and trash like crazy and destroying the world, you buy your third electric car thinking you made a difference.

 

[pgg]

That's exactly my point. While they're burning coal and gasoline and oil and kerosene and diesel and wood and trash like crazy and destroying the world, you buy your third electric car thinking you made a difference.

You've got this really weird flight-of-ideas thing going on.

That wasn't your point AT ALL. You wrote:

India's pollution problem is atrocious. Why isn't India's entire auto inventory just electric? They actually have pollution problems that could benefit from getting rid of diesel vehicles.

That was a clear and genuine proposal for India to switch over to electric vehicles. Did you forget you wrote that?

Now you're saying your actual point is that India is destroying the world? Or that one less barrel of oil burned in the United States isn't as good as one less barrel of oil burned in India? Maybe their atmosphere is partitioned off somehow?

The United States has 1/5th the population of India, and we consume 4x as much oil as they do. They burn less coal, too. Their CO2 emissions are half of ours, and 1/4 of China's.

 

[deleted643396]

Duh, of course the incentive applies to everyone, but most of the purchasers of electric cars are affluent, not middle class, even though cheaper options like the Leaf exist.

You think middle class people care about "global warming" when they're just trying to survive?

While you buy your third car that will be used for only commuting, they're buying/financing a multifunctional car/truck that serves all their needs.

Also, not all trucks cost $60k...

Well now the rich people can all buy up all the Nissan Leafs and Kia Niros because Tesla and GM are both being phased out of the tax credit anyway.

 

[Mikkel]

Well now the rich people can all buy up all the Nissan Leafs and Kia Niros because Tesla and GM are both being phased out of the tax credit anyway.

 

[deleted87051]

Not sure why the Chevy Volt isn’t a runaway bestseller. Basically never have to buy gas for commuting purposes and no range anxiety.

 

[deleted162650]

Not sure why the Chevy Volt isn’t a runaway bestseller. Basically never have to buy gas for commuting purposes and no range anxiety.

It's ugly

 

[OneTyme]

2018 F250 Lariat. 6.7 turbo diesel. NEVER going back to a car again.


View attachment 273256

Cute Truck bro.

Try an F450 if you want a real one...

 

[pgg]

Cute Truck bro.

Try an F450 if you want a real one...View attachment 273613

What's the point of the dually when the extend cab leaves a miniature truck bed? Is that thing for hauling around tungsten ingots?

 

[2Fast2Des]

It's ugly

It's not bad... Talk about the Leaf\Clarity\Prius Prime when talking about ugly.

 

[deleted162650]

What's the point of the dually when the extend cab leaves a miniature truck bed? Is that thing for hauling around tungsten ingots?

Even the standard “short bed” on the Super Duties is 6’7”. And you can absolutely get the 8’ bed with the Crew Cab. Can’t really tell what that one has in the pic.

 

[Dam272]

Honest opinion. Can I afford an Audi R8 in fellowship? [emoji848]

 

[dhb]

Honest opinion. Can I afford an Audi R8 in fellowship? [emoji848]

If you like spaghetti

 

[IMGASMD]

Honest opinion. Can I afford an Audi R8 in fellowship? [emoji848]

If you are independently wealthy. Why not? I don’t think I can afford it with my attending salary right now.

 

[OneTyme]

What's the point of the dually when the extend cab leaves a miniature truck bed? Is that thing for hauling around tungsten ingots?

It’s a full size bed.

It’s the perfect size to fit my ego... and all my student loan bills.

 

[IlDestriero]

Currently deciding between the exact same cars minus the mustang and subbing in the ftype! new C8 looks incredible i just didnt fit well in old one at 6’2 220. i heard the lc is more of a luxury type vehicle so might fit better.

I’m 6’2” and 225. I fit in the LC just fine. It’s a nice ride, though it is very low. Give it a test drive. I imagine it’s far more comfy than the vette.

 

[narcotics999]

You've got this really weird flight-of-ideas thing going on.

That wasn't your point AT ALL. You wrote:


That was a clear and genuine proposal for India to switch over to electric vehicles. Did you forget you wrote that?

Now you're saying your actual point is that India is destroying the world? Or that one less barrel of oil burned in the United States isn't as good as one less barrel of oil burned in India? Maybe their atmosphere is partitioned off somehow?

The United States has 1/5th the population of India, and we consume 4x as much oil as they do. They burn less coal, too. Their CO2 emissions are half of ours, and 1/4 of China's.

But it has the largest herd of cows. Methane from cow fart is 80 times more potent than CO2 as a green gas.

 

[deleted87051]

But it has the largest herd of cows. Methane from cow fart is 80 times more potent than CO2 as a green gas.

They just need to add some some seaweed to the cow feed to cut it way down.

Cows and Climate Change

Cattle are the No. 1 agricultural source of greenhouse gasses worldwide. One cow belches 220 pounds of methane yearly. Fortunately, UC Davis has solutions.

www.ucdavis.edu

 

[Neopolymath]

So disappointed in you guys right now. If OP wasn't being disingenuous, the clear answer is an older, well-maintained vehicle from before over the top safety standards and digital bs made cars numb and boring. OP should purchase a Porsche of any iteration, e90 or older M3/ M coupe/ M Roadster, etc. and spend the money he saved on driver education weekends and a few sets of tires at his local track. Driving a "slow" car fast is far more enjoyable than this new numb garbage. It's not really debatable and it's a lot of fun to send it in your NA car while some dude tries to figure out why his GTR's computer won't let him make the decisions.

 

[pgg]

e90 or older M3/ M coupe/ M Roadster

E46 M3

Have had one for 17 years now. Great car.

 

[Mad Jack]

Tesla model 3 LR AWD base colored paint premium interior FSD.

I just got one 🙂

0-60 in 4.4 seconds. But saying this is just a fast 0-60 car is not doing it justice. Flash back to 2009. Y'all are bragging about your awesome Motorola Razor while I just bought an iPhone. Model 3 here is the iPhone.

For a progressive crowd, the conversation here is shockingly backwards. Don't understand why a bunch of highly educated people of science are still talking about internal combustion engines when the future is so affordable to them....

It's almost like yall are willingly ignorant ...

Note that the following more applies to those of us that like our cars to be toys, rather than daily commuters, so this is more of a Model S vs Corvette comment than a Model 3 vs 5 Series argument:

Maybe some of us just like the sound and feel of a naturally aspirated V8. Though I am very interested in the future hybrid muscle and sports cars that will combine the best features of both worlds- electric to augment the already ridiculous power being put out by some modern engines. Electric motors to augment combustion engines and provide a more robust torque and hp curve early in the RPM range seem to be the future. The other benefit of combustion engines when it comes to performance is that driving a Tesla like you stole it will seriously limit your range when compared with a combustion powered performance vehicle, as at track levels of output a Tesla burns through 25% of its battery in about 15 minutes, and also of note is limited to 155 mph and has significantly impaired handling and braking compared to the competition.

Compare this to the new C8, which is far cheaper, will likely have a top speed north of 200 mph, lasts far longer on the track, and will likely have far better handling and braking, and, well... It's a no brainers why actual gearheads aren't all that thrilled with electric just yet.

 

[2Fast2Des]

Note that the following more applies to those of us that like our cars to be toys, rather than daily commuters, so this is more of a Model S vs Corvette comment than a Model 3 vs 5 Series argument:

Maybe some of us just like the sound and feel of a naturally aspirated V8. Though I am very interested in the future hybrid muscle and sports cars that will combine the best features of both worlds- electric to augment the already ridiculous power being put out by some modern engines. Electric motors to augment combustion engines and provide a more robust torque and hp curve early in the RPM range seem to be the future. The other benefit of combustion engines when it comes to performance is that driving a Tesla like you stole it will seriously limit your range when compared with a combustion powered performance vehicle, as at track levels of output a Tesla burns through 25% of its battery in about 15 minutes, and also of note is limited to 155 mph and has significantly impaired handling and braking compared to the competition.

Compare this to the new C8, which is far cheaper, will likely have a top speed north of 200 mph, lasts far longer on the track, and will likely have far better handling and braking, and, well... It's a no brainers why actual gearheads aren't all that thrilled with electric just yet.

Ok how many normal people are going to be taking their fancy new car and burning rubber on the track? Realistically...

 

[chocomorsel]

Tesla model 3 LR AWD base colored paint premium interior FSD.

I just got one 🙂

0-60 in 4.4 seconds. But saying this is just a fast 0-60 car is not doing it justice. Flash back to 2009. Y'all are bragging about your awesome Motorola Razor while I just bought an iPhone. Model 3 here is the iPhone.

For a progressive crowd, the conversation here is shockingly backwards. Don't understand why a bunch of highly educated people of science are still talking about internal combustion engines when the future is so affordable to them....

It's almost like yall are willingly ignorant ...

Ehh. It’s about how the African people are exploited to make those batteries that make me not want to own a hybrid nor a Tesla like I thought I wanted. And I am a tree hugger.

Can't speak to the human rights violations. Would love some more info on that if you have it.

But the carbon emission offset of battery making (which was included in the carbon emissions of making the car) has been covered by me in this thread already.

google “Congo and lithium ion batteries”. One of the reasons I am not on the EV bandwagon even as a tree hugger. People are dying and being maimed all the while being exploited by ruthless Chinese companies for $2 a day.
When will Africans have enough and stop making the rest of the world rich by pillaging their resources? And when will the West and East stop trying to take advantage of Africa?

 

[chocomorsel]

The figures for this are all over the map. It's easy to cherry pick your data depending on which side of the argument you're on.



I don't really have the info on this (not in the market for an EV currently so haven't bothered to do any research myself). The story is however, that little African kids are basically slaves in the cobalt mines. Teslas are the new blood diamonds sorta thing.

Glad someone else brought this up. I was so excited when the affordable Tesla came out till I stumbled on a WaPo or CNN article. Quickly changed my mind.

And yes, I know they are in phones and computers but my other option would be a land line and desktop.

 

[Neopolymath]

E46 M3

Have had one for 17 years now. Great car.

I have one 🙂

 

[deleted87051]

I have one 🙂

We have some nice cars parked at work but this and an old carrera are my favorites. So clean and perfect.

 

[pgg]

Ok how many normal people are going to be taking their fancy new car and burning rubber on the track? Realistically...

🙂 How many normal people who buy 4wd pickup trucks ever haul a load of plywood, let alone actually go off road? The most dirt those tires typically see is the flower bed by the mailbox as the owner is clumsily backing into the driveway.

 

[deleted50478]

🙂 How many normal people who buy 4wd pickup trucks ever haul a load of plywood, let alone actually go off road? The most dirt those tires typically see is the flower bed by the mailbox as the owner is clumsily backing into the driveway.

And if you haul something once or twice a year, rent a truck at Lowe’s.

 

[sleepallday]

So disappointed in you guys right now. If OP wasn't being disingenuous, the clear answer is an older, well-maintained vehicle from before over the top safety standards and digital bs made cars numb and boring. OP should purchase a Porsche of any iteration, e90 or older M3/ M coupe/ M Roadster, etc. and spend the money he saved on driver education weekends and a few sets of tires at his local track. Driving a "slow" car fast is far more enjoyable than this new numb garbage. It's not really debatable and it's a lot of fun to send it in your NA car while some dude tries to figure out why his GTR's computer won't let him make the decisions.

yes, and if you get the right Porsche, you might even make a profit if you decide to sell it. I unexpectedly made a nice return when I sold my Porsche after a few years.

Tesla's are really sweet cars. The technology is amazing. But if I'm going to spend that kind of money on a car, its going to be light weight, manual, and preferably air-cooled.

 

[Mikkel]

yes, and if you get the right Porsche, you might even make a profit if you decide to sell it. I unexpectedly made a nice return when I sold my Porsche after a few years.

Tesla's are really sweet cars. The technology is amazing. But if I'm going to spend that kind of money on a car, its going to be light weight, manual, and preferably air-cooled.

How much did you spend in total on maintenance and repairs while you owned it?

I heard Porsches are endless moneypits.

 

[deleted87051]

How much did you spend in total on maintenance and repairs while you owned it?

I heard Porsches are endless moneypits.

They are very reliable and tend not to break down or need repairs. However, regular maintenance and tires can be expensive. The key is to find a good independent shop for regular maintenance and not use a dealership. Then maintenance can be not much more than any other car. They do chew through rear tires like crazy (10000mi) if they a driven the way they are meant to be driven and they are expensive.

 

[Neopolymath]

yes, and if you get the right Porsche, you might even make a profit if you decide to sell it. I unexpectedly made a nice return when I sold my Porsche after a few years.

Tesla's are really sweet cars. The technology is amazing. But if I'm going to spend that kind of money on a car, its going to be light weight, manual, and preferably air-cooled.

Air-cooled market did me good a few years ago as well. 86 coupe guards red. Same thing happened with my M roadster. If you buy good cars, they generally appreciate or maintain value compared to expenses and miles of enjoyment over ownership. Working on your own car is super easy too for most tasks and doesn't require anything special. It is very enjoyable especially now that I have all the tools/lift.

 

[Shufflin]

They are very reliable and tend not to break down or need repairs. However, regular maintenance and tires can be expensive. The key is to find a good independent shop for regular maintenance and not use a dealership. Then maintenance can be not much more than any other car. They do chew through rear tires like crazy (10000mi) if they a driven the way they are meant to be driven and they are expensive.

What's your source? We had neighbors who owned a Porche dealership, owned a Porche (of course), and the wife told me its just not worth it due to cost of lots and lots of maintenance. Then there's Google, and reading Car Magazine and Car & Driver all seem to say Porches older than a few years were maintenance hogs.

The maintenance can be much much much more than any other car.

 

[Mad Jack]

Ok how many normal people are going to be taking their fancy new car and burning rubber on the track? Realistically...

How many normal people are going to be buying Model S Teslas and Corvettes, realistically?

Performance cars are designed specifically to do well on the track for decent periods of time, after you break them in it isn't doing a whole hell of a lot of harm unless you're shifting wrong or going into the red with no limiter enabled. Modern cars, especially those with naturally aspirated engines, are extremely reliable on the track due to many of the protective features the EMU/ECU have to keep drivers from trashing their own engines. Superchargers and turbos don't change the game much, but more moving parts=more headaches down the line.

 

[deleted87051]

What's your source? We had neighbors who owned a Porche dealership, owned a Porche (of course), and the wife told me its just not worth it due to cost of lots and lots of maintenance. Then there's Google, and reading Car Magazine and Car & Driver all seem to say Porches older than a few years were maintenance hogs.

The maintenance can be much much much more than any other car.

I owned one for a number of years. Dealer will charge $400 for oil change and $2k for new rotors and pads but the independent shop that all the Porsche club guys use charged $150 for oil change and $700 for rotors and pads. Oil changes on newer Porsche’s are q10000 miles so service intervals are not that frequent. Dealer also charged $500 Michelin pilot sports I could get for $275 anywhere else. Like I said, dealer service dept will rob you. From my experience, the same ripoffs happen at Lexus and Chevy dealers.

 

[Shufflin]

I owned one for a number of years. Dealer will charge $400 for oil change and $2k for new rotors and pads but the independent shop that all the Porsche club guys use charged $150 for oil change and $700 for rotors and pads. Dealer also charged $500 Michelin pilot sports I could get for $275 anywhere else. Like I said, dealer service dept will rob you. From my experience, the same ripoffs happen at Lexus and Chevy dealers.

Very true.